Е Ed Seykota, 2003 ... You may not reprint without permission.

Ed Seykota's

Frequently Asked Questions

Trading Tribe Home Page  иии  FAQ Home Page & Ground Rules

Tribe Directory - How to Join иии  The Trading Tribe Process

Risk Management  иии  Books  иии  Links


May 25-31, 2003





Sat, 31 May 2003

Clueless part 2

OK... as you said you wanted to follow up... here's what we tried after receiving your advice. No men-in-white-coats have arrived yet, but its only a matter of time... R/H = receiver / hot seat

R - Shall we do what the man suggests then?

H - OK.
R - So... where do you want to start?

H - This sentence is really bugging me... "Fred can use TTP as just another opportunity to dramatize failure" ... I don't understand it. What does he mean by that? How do you dramatize failure? Does that mean you make it happen yourself?
R - I don't know.

H - Hmmm ... what else does he say here? "Nothing works, I'm so dumb, I don't get it, I'm doing something wrong, I'm stupid". Its weird... since the last time we did this I don't feel the same anymore. I mean... nothing happened between than and now... I just feel different ... I dont agree with what he says here ... I'm not dumb or stupid ... and "nothing works" ... more like I haven't found anything that works for me yet, and "I'm doing something wrong"? Am I? That kind of clicks ... not that I'm doing anything wrong, Im doing everything right really, maybe a bit slow... but I haven't found what suits me yet... I guess its impatience and frustration. When I feel that "I want it now" feeling... lets see... OK I'm creating that feeling now... I feel like jumping up and banging on a table or something... and yelling.
R - So... jump up and bang on the table ...

H - You mean really get up?
R - Yes.

H - There's no table.
R - So hit the sofa.

H - I feel stupid doing that.
R - Just do it. See what happens.

H - OK. I'm not yelling though.
R - You grunted.

H - Wow! That feels better... kind of funny now... reminds me of being a kid and having a tantrum!
R - And the feeling ...

H - Its different ... kind of energized.
R - How?

H - Its not gonna happen just cos I want it to... I've still got work to do. I'd still like results ASAP, but I don't feel frustrated now. Just thinking of things to do to get there. Kind of energized. "Yeah! Bring it on!"
R - What about that curling up feeling?

H - Very weird indeed that ... I cant make myself feel it anymore... I wouldn't go so far as to say its gone, cos maybe it hasn't, but when I imagine myself in the same situation as last time, instead of that running away feeling, I feel like bubbles in my stomach... its kind of nice ...
R - Bubbles ...

H - Yeah ... they make me want to get up and learn that new language cos maybe it'll solve the problem. All my complaints were actually quite valid points ... I mean, I have to do what I have to do ... and if I need confidence to operate, and if I feel I'll get confidence from a system that works how I'd like it to, then I need to design a system that does what I want ... and if I need to learn a new language, well, it sucks, but this isn't a game ... its serious ... there are people out there that would love to take my money off me, and I'm not going to let them. They already got most of it anyway! hehehehe! But I'm not giving them any more! At least not without a fight. So if I need to spend more time learning ... so be it. Having said that ... although I *feel* kind of excited, when I actually think about sitting down and doing the flowcharts and typing out all that [code] I end up putting it off ...
R - Putting it off? How do you do that?

H - Well, I've actually started, but I'm doing it in bursts... yesterday I did a bit on the morning and spent the whole afternoon playing chess against the computer ... said to myself I'd do it in the evening, then I ended up renting a video ...
R - So what's the problem with that? I worked a few hours this morning and now I feel like playing ... so what?

H - I should be working ...
R - Should? How do you know you *should*?

H - A feeling.
R - Go on... what kind of feeling ...

H - I'm talking to myself in my head.
R - What am I saying?

H - Now its different from the other day ... before I was calling myself names and a waster and stuff ... now its more like "Come on... we need to do that program... its not that hard".
R - OK, I'm telling myself that too, and I feel like getting up and working... so where's your problem?

H - I feel like getting up and working too ... but right on the millisecond I decide that I have to get started ... I decide to do something else.
R - How do I do that? That's not happening to me ...

H - Hmmmm ... dunno ... OK ... I'm thinking about the program and how its going to work ... or at least how it might work ... solve the limitations of the last program ... and I kind of move to get up ... and something pulls me away ... sends me off course ... and I end up doing something else.
R - I'm not following... how do I do that? Nothings pulling me off course...

H - Its like "Ah... I'll do it later..." And I read a book ... or check my portfolio ... or play chess ... or go and buy chocolate cake ... anything but open the program.
R - But, when I do what you say, I don't feel like doing it later ... I've got bubbles in my stomach ... and I'm saying good things to myself ... I feel like doing it now.

H - The bubbles have gone now...
R - What's there now?

H - Its kind of heavy...
R - What?

H - My stomach... its weird. I still feel kind of motivated, but its like

... "not right now ... later".

R - Go back to that heaviness ... describe it ...

H - Its heavy... don't know how to explain...
R - Well, what else are you aware of?

H - Errrr.... My jaw has gone tight.
R - OK, so my stomach is heavy and my jaw is tight. What am I doing?

H - I'm lying on the bed reading, I was about to get up and suddenly I feel heavy ... a bit like when you go over a speed bump ... but instead of up, its down ... heavy ... my jaw has tightened and I'm kind of frozen in mid movement. Wow! And I can feel my heart beating in my chest! My mind has gone blank... I'm kind of thinking about the computer and I'm biting my teeth together... there's kind of a tension in my shoulders... kind of pulling them backwards ... that's really weird ... that's what's stopping me going forward ... I take a deep breath, blink, think of something else to do, and the feeling goes away ... and I've decided to try the programming later ... but I've kind of convinced myself that I will ... just later... when I feel more like it. So I don't even feel guilty about it ... I do now though. No... not guilty... just [deleted]  Whats your problem?"
R - But we don't want it to go away... we want to experience it ...

H - How can I if it goes away?
R - Go back to lying on the bed, about to get up, feeling heavy, tense, heartbeat ...

H - OK ...
R - But don't take a deep breath... try and hold on to the feeling longer ...

H - OK ... I'm kind of scared ... not scared scared, but like on the start line of a race ... when I was a kid ... like school sports day or swimming in the scouts... more like nervous ... not scared ... I'm not sure I can win ... I don't want to be an embarrassment ... Im not as good as these other kids ... they all look stronger ... they'll beat me ... I remember I used to win when I was little... but now I'm older they all go to clubs and practice and I don't... I cant win anymore ...
R - How does that feel? Describe the feeling ...

H - Like "what's the point?" I know I'm not going to win, so why bother?
R - OK, but describe what you're feeling ...

H - I remember diving in and going like the clappers and then just fizzling out on the way back ... nothing left... I thought I was going to die halfway down the second length... totally unfit. Embarrassing. I think I came last or something ...
R - The feeling ...

H - I feel OK... like I knew it was going to happen ... tired!
R - Describe that feeling.

H - Errrr... its like I'm taking it philosophically ... they train, I dont... like I'm kidding myself that its the "taking part" that counts and not the winning. I couldn't win. I knew that. Although in a way, I'd kind of hoped I might. What's this got to do with putting things off?
R - No idea. Concentrate on the feeling ... tell me more ...

H - I feel like a fallen hero ... you know, I did what had to be done ... and lost courageously. I feel kind of glad I lost cos people are saying I did my best, bla, bla, bla ... trying to make me feel good. I don't feel bad. Its kind of a subdued feeling ... kind of "told you so". Right now I'm feeling tension in my jaw and a heavy feeling in my stomach. I feel like belting that kid round the head and saying "You little dork! What the hell do you expect? You want to win, go and train! Stop trying to get people to pat you on the back and go and learn how to do something! Train! Practice! Sweat! Make some sacrifices! Do you want to end up like me?"
R - So you're angry?

H - Not angry... he needs a kick up the [deleted] ... he's too passive. His [deleted] dad needs a wake up call too ... he's one of those "never mind son, I'm really proud of you anyway" types. I can do no wrong. But he doesn't help or give any advice. He's just "there". I mean he actually took me to a club once, but they wouldn't have me cos I couldn't swim butterfly. Told me to come back later when I could do a length without drowning. I mean my dad just took me home and we forgot about it. He didn't even suggest I go and learn butterfly ... I don't think he could swim himself by the way, so he couldn't teach me! That's me judging him today... I guess he was just trying to protect me. I didn't think like that when I was ten or whatever. It wasn't any badness on his part. I guess he just gave up or never thought. Come to think of it, I know he's my dad and all that, but I have to admit he's a bit of a waster too ... has dreams but never actually realized many of them ... not like a "failure" or anything, but when he's achieved today isn't what he wanted 20 years ago. Gave up along the way, or got into a rut ... always got some excuse ... his education, the bank... I didn't need protection, I needed a kick in the [deleted]! When I was a kid I just kind of kept quiet. Bit dopey I guess... hadn't learned to think for myself... not sure I have today either...
R - Go back to the feeling... what's it like now?

H - Still a bit tense in my chest... but its more relaxed. My shoulders feel lighter... My necks hurting now. Wow... really stiff... wasn't like that before... where did that come from? Taking a deep breath clears my chest. I feel better ... not 100% ... maybe 70% ... but I can feel my brow is really furrowed ... like Im frowning ... can you see that?
R - Yes.

H - I feel like I'm trying to figure something out... a bit confused... really heavy round my eyes ...
R - Go on ...

H - Nothing ... that's it. .. no "aha" or anything like that ... although it was a bit weird ... in a way I can kind of see the connection ... not totally ... but there's kind of a message there ... is there supposed to be a message? How do you know when this is "over"? Am I supposed to get hit by a lightning bolt or something?
R - I have absolutely no idea. Do you feel like you've finished? What's the message?

H - If I want a system that makes money, I've got to design one. That's all there is to it. What has to be done has to be done... Like the swimming I guess... How can I expect to win just cos I'm me? You've got to do the groundwork ...



This is really, really strange ... some things seem to have changed in the last week ... or more precisely I seem to be looking at them differently, or feeling different in the same situation ... don't know why or how. Spose its not important.

Its also quite difficult to "recreate" the same situation that I was undergoing in the first test ... like its gone ... but I know its not "gone" cos I can remember it happening. Can't explain... I know it is / was there... but I cant recreate it ... it happens differently now.

And I've had some VERY funny recurring "flashback" type experiences to when I was a kid / adolescent over the last few days ... but they seem totally unrelated to anything mentioned here or before ... What are they?

This is nuts, but its fun.







Sat, 31 May 2003


Now documented: Brain Kills Profits

You want a great contrarian indicator? Me + a NOT gate. Hah! Check this out ...

I trade with a simple moving average system, no gimmicks. I should say, I developed one, and tried to put it into practice. Along the way, I make various "judgment calls" -- open a trade a little earlier or hold on a little longer than the method calls for. Here are the results for May (just went over my statement):

Method: 20 trades, gross $1380.00, net $1262.00 after commissions.

Method + my tweaks: 50 trades (yes, fifty), gross $400, net $102.50 after commissions.

I am shocked. FIFTY trades, 2.5 times more than the method called for. The surprising thing-- along the way, I just thought I was tweaking it a little bit here and there. And is wasn't worth it-- ignoring trading costs, I kill more that 2/3 of the profit. hahahah!

Ok. Note to self: Don't mess with the method.


Sat, 31 May 2003


Getting Stopped Out

Dear Ed,

Your web site is great. It is indeed helping me in thinking more clearly.

I would like to know your views on getting stopped and getting back in.

Once you get stopped out and the stock / commodity starts its original move along the trend, does one need to reduce the bet size ?

Do systems typically assume
the velocity of a move and the length of a move in assessing risk and use it as a factor in calculating the size of a bet ?


FAQ does not recommend specific trading system parameters. See Ground Rules.


You may have feelings about wanting authority figures to run your life.




Kaiser Wilhelm


Famous for his militaristic manner,

vacillating policies

and miscalculation of Risk in WWI.


Clip: http://faculty.virginia.edu/setear/


Fri, 30 May 2003


New Haven TT


Please use my new email address.

I will wait for your direction on next steps.


I am preparing a Training Course for later this year.

Fri, 30 May 2003


Catharsis & Abreaction


Is the TTP's intent ultimately catharsis  / abreaction for traders?

The intent is for CM to acknowledge Fred.  Cathartic abreaction optional.



Emotional Expression


can be part of the process ...

or just more drama.



Clip: www.writershome.com/


Fri, 30 May 2003


A Woman's Perspective

Hello Ed,

Since we have our meeting on a bi-weekly basis, my turn doesn't come that often to be on the hot seat. So I thought why not get my best friend (my wife) to help me with TTP. So I sent her an email today asking her to read up on TTP, so that we could do it together. I thought I would have to spend quite a bit of time brining her up to speed. I am somewhat surprised how quickly she got the gist of TTP !


Please see her email below.

So I started thinking, in our group we have 10 male members and but only one woman. She is a institutional trader, a very bright person, I think she did research TTP before her first meeting. One thing that struck me was that in her very first meeting she jumped right in the TTP, as a receiver she did an excellent job ! Very intuitive, actually I credit her with playing a key role that resulted in a aha !

So what do you think Ed, is Fred a woman in drag? :)

Here is my wife's email:

I just had some time on my hands and I read through the TTP. The whole process is clearing your mind to allow your subconscious to come forward with the underlining feelings.

I have always felt that the way in which women communicate is similar to this. Women don't want a fix or judgment to their feelings about a situation -- they just want to be able to express them to someone who is a good listener (the receiver). In the trading world, men dominate the field. I believe that men communicate a whole hell of a lot differently in that the suppression of feelings occurs frequently throughout the day.

This is where Ed comes up with the idea of Fred (notice that he names the subconscious mind by a male name) speaking / expressing feelings with no judgment and no advice -- just allow the sender to send and allow all others to validate these feelings.

TTP seems to improve relationships.




Side Effect



Clip: www.instantcomfort.com/why2.asp




Fri, 30 May 2003



"Higher forms of the trance state include art (Parataxic mode) and creativity (Syntaxic mode). Parataxic experience consists of relationships with images whose meaning remains on the symbolic level. Syntaxic
experiences occur when the conscious ego cooperates willingly with the subconscious. Here meaning is fully cognized, with minimal distortion or production."

The conscious ego cooperates willingly with the subconcious.


Is this what you mean when you say Fred and what's-his-name are communicating?


Would you say that trading is a creative process?

You might have some deep feelings about wanting the world to be logical.





A great place to go

to avoid dealing with feelings.



Clip: www.film.queensu.ca/


Fri, 30 May 2003


All Time Highs

Dear Mr. Ed Seykota,

I'm currently experiencing positive results with the following methodology:

Stocks breaking out its all time highs and achieving returns > 100% in the past year. Exiting the position as soon as the stock closes below the 20 SMA.

I'm curious to find out if it is feasible to back test this particular system.

Thank you,

Depends on who's doing the feasing.



The Feasing Geezer


after consulting the feasometer,

he says it might be feasible.


Clip: www.thegeezerbrigade.com/


Fri, 30 May 2003


Anticipating Saturday's Mountain Hike

with The Trading Tribe,

John Muir Speaks to Hikers

I never saw a discontented tree. They grip the ground as though they liked it, and though fast rooted they travel about as far as we do. -- John Muir

Tug on anything at all and you'll find it connected to everything else in the universe. -- John Muir





Fri, 30 May 2003



Hi Ed,

Do you believe anybody can be a successful trader by 1. Finding a trading system with an positive edge 2. Using the TT process to follow the system

I have learned so much from your TT website.


If you are the anybody you have in mind, look in your own heart for the answer.




Find the Successful Trader


Clip: www.prm.nau.edu/


Fri, 30 May 2003



Dear Ed,

Thanks for your insight, most people charge hundreds/thousands for what you offer on FAQ.

My trading has been profitable this week which is normal after big drawdowns, however I seem to be in a calmer place now with regards to life and trading trying to feel my emotions.

I noticed today after being stopped out a few times an insistence on my behalf to get back in with the same view, a behaviour I know from experience has done me harm both financially and emotionally.

I think it may have to do with not being able to accept I was wrong although I'm not sure, your thoughts are much appreciated.

Thanks again

Thinking about being able to accept being wrong is processing a concept.

Stick with the feelings about being wrong, and allow Fred to convey the experience to CM.



Thinking and Analyzing


are different from experiencing.



Clip: http://webster.commnet.edu/


Fri, 30 May 2003


FAQ question

Dear Mr. Seykota,

First of all, I thank you for your extremely interesting and useful website. I feel I am improving as a person with the help of FAQ.

I am a serial procrastinator. This trait adversely affects every part of my life. I wish to extirpate the recurring dramas which result from procrastination (maybe procrastination is part of the drama) and believe that TTP can help me with this.

I try to experience my feelings regarding procrastination but am unable to make much progress. I know that I will have to get a certain task done but I can always find an excuse to not do it until later. I have the ability to do things really fast when I absolutely need to.

From an analytical point of view I have always thought this "talent" induced some type of laziness. However, this analysis has not helped me overcome my problem. From reading the FAQ I realize I have unresolved feelings that I have not fully experienced. I would appreciate any suggestions from you on where I might start locating such feelings.

Best Regards,

You might consider putting off the whole idea of dealing with your procrastination ... at least until you have a chance to fully experience the feelings of wanting to avoid doing things.



Procrastination ...

something you can do right now.


Clip and Information: http://de.lbcc.edu/sideroad/


Thu, 29 May 2003


Co-dependent Behavior


I read something about co-dependent behavior characteristics at this link and it rings a bell for me, esp. in the past, as I have improved a lot in recent years through religion and healthy and supportive relationships. Yet I see this seems to be a great drama, in light of the Process, and I wonder what kind of message Fred wants to convey to CM in a co-dependent individual. The words that come to my mind are emotional abuse in early childhood which lead CM try to ignore feelings altogether.

Just like the other contributor put it so well, I have also learned over the years that the best way to deal with such a drama is by experiencing the "negative" feelings such as sadness, pain, etc. we are trying to suppress as, usually, they dissipate leaving wisdom and contentment in the troubling area.

In few words, it is all about experiencing life intensely and fully.

Best Regards,

Co-dependency is the cooperation of Freds, or Under Fred. 


When Fred entrains a drama in the outside world, he typically finds other Freds, who  can experience the drama from different points of view.


The alcoholic may be dramatizing  one set of feelings; the enabling spouse may be dramatizing others.


In some cases, the alcoholic reforms and drops the drama, while the enabling spouse does not reform.


Instead, the spouse drops the reformed alcoholic and finds another non-reformed alcoholic.



Wondering about messages from Fred


 is not the same as experiencing them.



Clip: http://wall.jussieu.fr/

Fri, 30 May 2003


Dear Ed,

Regarding my e-mail on Risk from May 15, 2003 and your response.

Thank you again and again and again. I went over some of the trades I have done in the last 10 years and realized that diversifying 5 to 10 times more in my case could have worked very well. I am not very good at some of the scientific terms you use and things like fractals but looking back at what I have experienced in trading makes sense when I read some of the risk links you provided. Holding on to my winners even if it is only with 1/10th of my capital could have yielded me thousands of percentages more.

I get shaken out of winning positions too easily because of the big percentage swings of my account. JCOM reversed on me recently and I had to reduce a big position at a loss again. I fully experienced the feeling of buying too much stock.

Recently I have held USAI for 11 points or 38%. I am able to hold because I reduced my position to 500 shares and the swings are not bothering me. I have not done that (Held for 11 points.) in a while.

I think I just did not realize how much money is really in the market and how far a stock can run. I was raised by two depression era parents and when I make $10,000 to $20,000 per trade I just cannot believe it. When I was a busboy at 16 years old, I could not even believe people would leave a full or half full glass of water on the table! That is how my father taught me.

Currently I have no debt, a small house worth about $300,000, an old car and a new $27,000 SUV that my wife drives. I recently put about $140,000 into making my house like new and building a 30' by 30' garage. I wouldn't have spent some of that money if I knew that my company was going to have more layoffs recently. I only have $140,000 and $40,000 in 2 separate stock accounts $20,000 in a bank, about $80,000 in a 401k plan and about $3000 in a checking account.

I have been preparing to survive on trading for a while. I still will take a job if available until my account is closer to $1 million but I would like to trade full time for a living. This is why I keep e-mailing and trying to learn more. I hope I am not bothering you too much. I appreciate the help. Just tell me how I can pay you back!

Maybe you could have a web conference call one day.

Home      300

Car        27


Illiquid      327


Stock 1   140

Stock 2    40

Bank       20

401-K      80

Cash        3


Liquid        283


Total         601


Rule of thumb: speculate with 10% or less of your net worth, and stop trading if you lose 1/2 of that, or 5% of your net worth.


In your case, your trading account would be about about 60k, with a risk of about 30k.


If your account grows, it might become your main asset.  If not, you can likely handle a 5% drawdown in net worth.


TTP seems to be working for many people. I am planning some kind of seminar for those who wish to pursue it.




Great Depression


Deep feelings can pass

from parents to children,

until someone experiences them.


Clip: www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/


Thu, 29 May 2003


Got It


The experience of it
is different from thinking about it.

Experiencing promotes TTP
analysis delays it.

I got it. Thanks. I experience feelings just as they present themselves to my being, without any labeling. The flow creates wisdom as Fred gets his point to CM. And the creative dialogue goes on and on in complete harmony.

Just have been using the FAQ for lack of a TT community.


Date: Fri, 30 May 2003


Dear Ed,

You are quite a comedian.

I should have known better than to question you on my very first visit to your website.
In all fairness, you did not state in the posting Perspective that a system using a 15 minute timeframe chart was using any particular length indicators or averages. But I do see your point.

You are partially correct about my deep feelings towards "the action and excitement of day trading " but not totally, because I am not a "day-trader" at the moment .
But it is ironic that I have just finished developing a day-trading system that I will begin using in tandem with my position trading system (which holds overnight positions).

The reasons for my developing a day-trading system are simple. I will explain ...
As you are no doubt aware, holding a position over night has big advantages and big disadvantages, for those huge winners that pay for all our losers are much more likely to come our way if the length of time one holds them for is increased.

But on the downside, ones risk exposure increases also as an unexpected terrorist attack / interest rate change / presidential assassination etc. could cause a massive "gap" from the close of the previous day to the open of the next day, and just because the SP500 has never lost 75% of its value in one day before, it doesn't mean that it never will. Atom bombs can be dangerous.

To protect oneself from this ever present danger, one has to spend a large amount of money buying index options, or taking an opposite position in some other market overnight. ( assuming one is a risk conscious trader of course, and not a gambler! )

This expense is a necessity as far as I am concerned, as having been twice destroyed by "unexpected market moves " I do not wish to experience a third occurrence of this kind of galling debacle.

It is true that risk/reward ratios and commission / profit ratios are severely hampered by day-trading but it is also true that one can get a good nights sleep when one doesn't have a large position running overnight.

Although the position trading system is far superior in results, the day trading system is also useable, and  I intend to use the day-trading system and trade larger size with it than I do with the position trading system at this time, and then reduce the size traded on the overnight system.
So I get the best of both worlds. Similar profits with the added bonus of risk reduction and a good nights sleep.

It is true that I love the excitement that running a winning trade gives me, and I would be surprised if there is a single trader out there who does not also relish this activity.


After all what do we trade for? Other than to gain the satisfaction of winning, the profits that come from winning, and the feeling of success encountered by "getting it right".

As for your comments regarding my "proclivities for gambling" this is an interesting observation, as indeed my first and second attempts at trading were very slapdash in the area of risk control, and prior to my career in trading, during the recession of the early 90's I made a modest living gambling on horses.

My first employment was in engineering which I thoroughly enjoyed, but the wages never filled me with enthusiasm.

It is my firm belief that most traders never fully respect the "worst case scenario" until it actually happens to sting them. I also believe that the valuable lessons I learned in my early trading have paved the way for my now very low risk, trading style.

I must admit however that I sometimes really feel the urge to place overly large trades (dangerously so) but have so far managed to resist this temptation, and I hope that I can continue this discipline.

I have had interesting conversations with a chap I know who is quite well versed in the subject of position sizing models, and after looking at my trading statistics, he informed me that if I had risked 25% of my trading capital on each trade, then my profits for the last 3 years would have been 62.5 times greater than they actually are!

This is a subject that plays on my mind, and I am often thinking that I should trade much bigger, but then I reject these thoughts because I would not be comfortable with the prospect of taking such huge drawdowns on my account, because its always likely that even a very good system can have a long string of losers.

So for these reasons I don't really consider myself a gambler at this time in my life as my stake sizes are relatively small in relation to my margin.

I don't like losses, and spend many hours looking at ways to keep them small and non emotionally damaging, as I am well aware that "losing ones nerve" is a very unhealthy scenario, that should be avoided at all costs.

As for your suggestion that "Proclivities for gambling, along with a penchant for imprecision may fuel interesting drama" I would have to agree with you with regards to my grammar, however I dont (sic) consider bad grammar to be particularly interesting.

When at school I was awarded the highly prestigious exam result of "unclassified" in both English language and English literature, so I think that one misplaced "n" that found its way into my posting can be considered fairly good going, can it not?

As for imprecision in my trading, this is one area that is given strict attention, and I haven't taken any losses bigger than 2.5% of my margin in the last 3 years since I reformed, honed and tested my trading ideas.

Here is a very old proverb that I like, perhaps there is an element of relevance in it for us both.

"Censure and criticism never hurt anybody, if false they cannot harm you unless you are wanting in character; if true they show a man his weak points and forewarn him against failure and trouble"

I like the website, and I hope that it will be ongoing. Today, I was wondering how you find the time to reply to everyone and also select a suitable picture to get your point across? Are you still doing much in the way of trading or are you retired now?

Kindest regards

When CM doesn't get Fred's experience of fear, he sets up lots of risky dramas.


Your reports of:


risky behavior, such as contemplating 25% bet size

engaging day-trading

suffering large drawdowns

fear of gaps

caviler attitude about precision

trading to the Uncle Point.


are consistent with blockage of fear.


A good receiver may be able to help you experience and dissolve these blockages.




Some of your phrases:


In all fairness

I will explain

Could cause


violate SVO-p grammar and indicate fundamentalist tendencies.




I neither find time, make time nor spend time. I know of no way, based on direct measurement, to detect the existence of the past or the future. I suspect all these terms are linguistic inventions, with no basis in direct experience.


I have only the ever evolving moment of now and I can make choices about what to do.




A Good Receiver


just gets the information,

without adding judgments.






Thu, 29 May 2003


Dear Ed,

I want to set up a Tribe in my area. It is hard for me to proceed with high degree of uncertainty about the Process.


My confidence level is low. There is many ways of doing things and there is many mistakes awaiting ahead to be made, if I just start it on my own right away.


I want to go around those mistakes or experience them in a nurturing environment. I think there may be more people in a similar situation, who live far and want to start a tribe, but are uncertain how to do it with a high probability of success.


The thing is I do not want just try it and see how it develops. I want to create the environment, where people can grow and help others grow and do it in a most efficient and successful manner. (perfectionism ? -maybe, if so - let me put it to work)


As you mentioned, the quality of receiving is critical and mastery comes to those who practice with masters.

This brings up a question: Do you plan to organize a quick, intensive course for people from far away? A course like that could help us get a lot quick, take it home and spread out.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Confidence and uncertainty are concepts.


See if you can find the associating body sensations and emotions, and allow yourself to experience them.


A good receiver is invaluable in facilitating TTP.


I am formulating a course about the work.




A Good Receiver


just gets the information,

without adding judgments.


Clip: ww.interpac.com.hk/pbx.htm

Thu, 29 May 2003


New Haven Tribe

"If you don't see a Community close by, you can start one. Send your name, city, email and telephone number to this site."

Ed, I'm interested in ... starting a Tribe in the New Haven CT area




New Haven

Connecticut !


See: Tribe Directory Page




Louis Lunch, Since 1895

On Crown between College and High


A Louis' regular might walk up to the counter and say "gimme two cheese works, a Californian, a salad, and a birch".


This translates (roughly) to "May I please have two original hamburgers with cheese, tomato and onion, cooked medium rare and served on toast, a hot dog with cheese, relish and onion, an order of potato salad, and an icy-cold birch beer. Thank you."


Clip: www.louislunch.com/

Thu, 29 May 2003



Each day I scan stocks breakout out, giving me an entry signal. Some days, the number of stocks giving this signal could be 200. I then narrow it down to 10 or so based on an "early" move as opposed to a stock that has hit a new high for 10 straight day.

Here is my question: Of the 10 stocks, I feel no stronger towards one or another. To me they are all the same.


The difficulty I have is I can't buy them all, so how do I "pick" the one or two?. Isn't "picking" a form of prediction?

Picking is choosing. Predicting is guessing the "future."


Both activities occur in and only in the ever evolving moment of now.


You might have some feelings about making commitments.


If you choose one banjo, over another, then you are a banjo picker.



Banjo Indicator


Five are pointing higher,

and one to the left.


Clip: http://lightning.prohosting.com/


Thu, 29 May 2003

The Tribe

Dear Ed:

I get the tribe concept. Been there, done that. I would like to catch a meeting and hang out for a weekend.

See Tribe Directory for admission policy.

Thu, 29 May 2003


Shaking the Habit

Hi Ed,

I was wondering what I can do to get rid of years of positive reinforcement for something that is essentially 'wrong.' I worked for 11 years as an F/X dealer for a major investment bank where one was rewarded with a nice salary and decent year end bonus for effectively locking in short term profits off customer trades.


This amounted to little more than stealing and has left me with some very bad trading habits. I cannot seem to shake the habit of looking for countertrend trades or if I happen to trade with the trend always find myself taking profits way too early.

I now trade my own account as a full time job yet cannot hang on to winners long enough and therefore am going nowhere fast in terms of P + L. . Luckily I now have a money management system in place where my losses are limited but my trading engine is still not running on all its cylinders. Any advice you can put forth would be greatly appreciated.


-- I have had about 20 sessions with an NLP practitioner and despite coming up with a trading plan and rules to follow I still swerve off the path. In writing this email I have already come up with a few answers myself but any further assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Check your feelings right before entering your exit order. Amplify the feeling and experience it, without judgment. A skillful receiver can help you focus.


NLP deals with modes of processing information within CM. TTP has to do with Fred communicating experience to CM.




Dancing Nuns


Shaking the Habit


Clip: www.explorekentuckylake.com/


Thu, 29 May 2003


Your Metaphor


Thank you, Ed.

I have another detailed TT question just now.

Everything I have studied about trading says to try to keep your emotions out of it. Then, I read yesterday in TT FAQ about the tennis player who experienced (and gave total _expression to) emotions *during* play, on a play break, after letting a 5-1 advantage in the 3rd get away from her.

She cried during the match. She later wins the match.

I'm guessing, after reading the TT site teachings, that the TTP allows the experience of emotions to connect Fred to CM. Then Fred is in sync with CM, mind and spirit are clear, and there is no drama later, for example while trading.

Is this correct?

How does own truly experience emotions profitably *during* trading, similar to the tennis player in yesterday's FAQ?

I'm unclear about the right time (during, after trading?) and way (TTP?) to experience emotions about trading as related to your teachings on Fred and CM. I understand that emotions need to be experienced to get Fred and CM communicating, which leads to getting balanced and clear.

I see the tennis player at the French Open winning, after giving expression to deep emotion *during* the match.

You said in previous FAQ answers that being discomfort *during* trading is quite normal. If it works as part of the answer, could you please explain that discomfort piece in more detail as part of your reply?

Thanks again. TT FAQ is a beautiful thing.

The time for feelings to come up is when they come up.



How to Keep Emotions Out


Keep a Stiff Upper Lip

Keep Your Chin Up

Keep Your Eyen On the Ball

Keep Your Ear to the Ground

Keep your Nose to the Grindstone


Now, try to get anything done in that position.



Clip: http://kidshealth.org/kid/talk/




Thu, 29 May 2003



People Don't Get What they Want

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I'm not trying to be smug about this, but am genuinely curious about one thing. When you said that everybody gets what they want, then what is the purpose of the trading tribe?


It presupposes that people are not getting what they want and hence, seek the help of the tribe.


Would appreciate it if you can enlighten me on this. Thanks.

Your presupposition seems to follow from the idea that the motive for all action is to escape pain.


You may have deep feelings about doing things just for fun, joy, leaning, enrichment and camaraderie.






Good way to avoid the misery

of hanging out at the beach.


Clip: www.ourworldadventures.com/



Wed, 28 May 2003



The feelings of embarrassment, shyness, wanting to know ... all provide good entry points for TTP. As you experience the feelings, they may change. Just keep tracking whatever presents.

Another image came to my mind. It happened a very long time ago, when I was about 8-10 years old. It was the first time I was punished by my father. He had warned us not to have meals in the living room ... I was eating an orange at the living room doorway when he surprised me. I was punished with his leather belt. It was the first time. I got very mad at him because I thought it was unfair as I was not inside the living room ... At the same time I got rather traumatized as I loved him ... I felt deep distrust since then.

TTP works by experiencing feelings, such as heat in your cheeks from embarrassment, or heat in your other cheeks from a belt.


Analyzing things and giving them names such as "trauma," "shyness" and "getting mad" is not the same as experiencing them.



Getting the Hot Seat


The experience of it

is different from thinking about it.


Experiencing promotes TTP

analysis delays it.


Clip: www.central.edu/english/johnmiller.htm

Wed, 28 May 2003

Charlotte Tribe

Dear Ed,

It seems you are performing a great service here. I would like to start/join a tribe in Charlotte, NC

I am 46 yrs old , and have 2 years study in technical analysis and trends ...  I would be doing it for self -development, I think that your approach of dealing with emotional blocks and being able to communicate with Fred more clearly would help myself and others. I look forward to the process.

I didn't know if the 1 pg essay is for your meeting in NV or for starting a group elsewhere. I will be glad to send one if needed as well as a more detailed resume.

Please let me know what to do from here. I think I might have a coupe of people who would be interested in a tribe in Charlotte.

Thanks for your help,





North Carolina !


See: Tribe Directory Page



Charlotte, NC


Clip: www.yahoo.com

Wed, 28 May 2003


Missed Meetings - Wants Back In

Dear Ed,

Your response to my statements in my last post brought up some very interesting memories. I do not fear telling authority figures 'no,' but I often give a reason or excuse for my answer instead of leaving it with a 'no.' I have done this with family members in my past, and since I committed to telling my father how I felt about some of my past, our relationship has already undergone a significant change.

I would like to know if I am invited to come back to be a member of the trading tribe? I will buy tickets in advance. Thanks for your time.

Yours Truly,

One of your dramas has to do with not saying no, promising and then not delivering.


When you can keep the attendance agreement you can re-apply for admission.



Intention = Result

Excuses are Optional





Thu, 29 May 2003 00:22:51 +0100


Dear Ed,

After reading about you in Market wizards, I was inspired by your method of thoroughly testing trading systems, and took particular notice of your comment, "I had my results".
After a rollercoaster first 2 years in trading, featuring 2 rags to riches occasions I figured I was in need of a methodology, so I hit the books, one of which was market wizards.
I spent over 2 years developing and testing my system on over 300 different markets of similar trending characteristics, and have been successfully using it with phenomenal returns for the last 3 years. (yes it is trend following )

As I, like you "had my results" and knew that there was a very strong probability of making consistent steady profits, before I even started using it.

My system is also used mainly on daily charts, but it is fractal (as in it works in any time frame) which brings me to the point.

Before I make my point, I would like to add that I do not intend to offend you or to in any way criticize your undoubted ability as a technical trader.

But my point is this, I was reading through your questions and answers, and stumbled upon your reply to one comment regarding timeframes, with the moral written at the bottom as saying something like "the holy grail is a timeframe".

I agree with this point (because selection of the optimal timeframe is vital for a successful system), but I don't agree with your comment about a system that works in a 15 minute timeframe not usually being consistently profitable. My reasons are as follows :

My system is profitable in any time frame (provided the lengths of the indicators are increased accordingly)

For example, let say you are using a 20 day moving average in a daily system, (which is profitable of course) On a daily chart this would obviously represent 20 bars of data.
But if the same system were applied to a 15 minute chart, assuming the market is from 8:00am to 4:30pm ( 8.5 hours =34 x 15 minute bars) and the MA length was increased by 34 times to 680 bars, the system would give the same signals as a 20 day MA on a daily chart.

There is a distinct advantage, in the sense that the signals would be given INTRADAY rather than after the close, and furthermore the shortening of the timeframes would allow greater sensitivity ( if required ) to other algorithms that may be needed to filter out bad entries or exits.

I would have thought this was an obvious point, but it seems to have been over looked, and as the saying goes, "Nothing is more frequently overlooked but the obvious "
I hope I don not appear arrogant in my manner, by posting this message but i like to point out these things if they bug me.

Kindest Regards

The actual quote, from May 18, Perspective is the tongue-in-cheek:


The Holy Grail

turns out to be a stopwatch.


It is not, as you incorrectly state:


The Holy Grail

is a timeframe


Your last sentence has grammatical errors, that I left standing (I generally correct submissions.)


You also seem to be confusing time horizon or time constant (the time argument for a moving average or other trend definition method) with sampling interval (how often you look at the data.)


Note: Systems that base signals on very short term trends, say 15 minutes, rarely profit. As trade duration decreases, so does the expectation of profit per trade. There is, however, no associating decrease in transaction cost per trade. So for increasing transaction frequency, the profit / cost ratio  deteriorates.


You might have some deep feelings about the action and excitement of day-trading. Proclivities for gambling, along with a penchant for imprecision might fuel interesting drama.




Precision Sometimes Means

Missing the Mark



Clip: www.arscomica.com/missingyou.html


Wed, 28 May 2003


Attend a Few Sessions


We had our first meeting in San Jose, Ca last night. I would like to attend a few sessions this summer in the Incline Village tribe, as an observer. Would you give me permission?

Membership in the Incline Village Trading Tribe requires regular attendance.  See Tribe Directory.


I am preparing a training course for senders and receivers.

Wed, 28 May 2003


Self-Correction on Risk

Hello Ed,

I was reading your article about simulations
and I just cannot understand how you are achieving, $1020 after your first toss. If you are betting $10 then you have $990 left after placing the bet, then you win $20 and go to $990+$20=$1010, not $1020.
Did I miss something? Thanks, and Best Regards Bart, Trieste, Italy


[second email]


Hello Ed,

sorry, I just read the pay-off is 2:1


Wed, 28 May 2003

Clueless ...

I tried out the process yesterday with a friend. Here's the result of a "Hot Seat".


Be nice if you could make some comments on what we did right/wrong. It didn't seem to help much, I mean it was a great "heart to heart" but didn't seem to accomplish anything. I'm not sure what the receiver is supposed to do ... just keep referring back to the feeling? There's a lot of "explanation" of the feelings here... is it necessary?

H = hot seat, R = receiver

H - My problem is I cant seem to get into the market. I'm scared to open a position.
R - OK, Opening a position scares me.

H - Well, not quite, I open a few and gradually they get stopped off, then I open a few more and they get stopped off, then I get scared. For example, I got a load of sell signals the other day, but I didn't take any of them. The stupid thing is, they're all low risk things, so even if I got wiped out it wouldn't be much money. Its more the fact that that would indicate it "isn't working". I guess that thought scares me.
R - OK. I get a signal and I get scared cos I think its not going to work.

H - Not quite, I get the signal and have a look at the graph, and if I don't like it I start feeling funny, uneasy. Like I know I have to act, but think its not going to work.
R - OK, I just got a signal, Iooked at the graph and don't like it. I'm not feeling scared though.

H - I feel like running away, throwing everything in the air, like a kid ... just running off to cry on mums shoulder. Funny thing is, I never actually did that when I was a kid, so I don't know where that comes from. I was always kind of independent. Managed to do everything by myself. Now with this trading I'm stuck.
R - OK, so tell me more about this feeling of "running away". I'm not feeling it.

H - I dunno... seems to happen quite a lot... when I'm about to write another system, like I know its not going to work... none of the others have. There is no magic formula, so what the hell am I looking for one for? Then I'm operating a system, a simple breakout system, according to the tests it should give me a few % profit over a year. Anyway, I open some positions, they do OK, like I said, most get stopped out, but there are a couple that do OK. Then I stop taking signals... I see the new positions I open, that get stopped out, eating away the profits and I get scared... frustrated... angry. Dunno. Just like a hot sinking feeling and the desire to yell something and go and do something else. Run away. I feel like a total failure ... Then I try and motivate myself and get back to it, but I cant.
R - OK. I'm having trouble feeling all those feelings. So far, I've got a system that gives me signals. I take some, but then stop cos I'm feeling scared, angry, frustrated and like a failure. I'm not feeling any of that. Perhaps angry at myself for not following the system. I cant locate these feelings.

H - OK. Angry. I get all kind of hot and a bit tense. I shift position a lot in my chair, my jaw is tense. I'm feeling mad cos I've spent so long writing systems, testing them and nothing ever does better than breakeven. Even the so called Trend following ones, breakouts, Turtle system ... I hear people talking about trend following systems and my results are zilch. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, testing on too many markets or something, but they just come out zero, or they make a 100% in one year and lose it all the next. I get really frustrated with that. The results I get don't bear out the stuff I hear and read. Confusing.
R - OK, I'm feeling tense and angry now, and perhaps a little confused, but you just mentioned frustration. I'm not feeling frustrated.

H - Hmm frustration... That I'm feeling in my gut. Something like driving me on. Like its got to work. How else am I going to grow my capital? I want to be responsible for myself. How can I be if I cant even look after my own capital? I don't think I'm even trying to get rich, what I'm really looking for is confidence in my ability to look after my own capital. Confidence. Once I've got that I can step up a gear and think about going after more. Every time I don't take a signal, or run a test that comes up negative or zero, I feel this frustration. Hot, in my stomach. Worried. I pick at my nails. Scared. I know most of the signals will be false, but I've already lost so much I cant bear to lose any more. Now in my head I know that sounds like I'm "predicting", but knowing it doesn't make the feeling go away.
R - OK, Now I'm feeling hot inside too. Its really important to me that it works, and it doesn't seem to be working. And even if it was, I'm not following the signals. That's got me frustrated. You mentioned scared too. I'm not scared. Just angry and frustrated. How do you feel that?

H - Hmmm that's a difficult one. I feel like my eyes popping open and I freeze. I'm not actually doing that but its how I feel. Like my hands poised over the keyboard, ready to do something... but what? Or the other day for example, I decided to go and write a new system in a new program that can do position sizing - my current program can only do one position at a time, which may have something to do with my lack of results - and I got scared. I just wanted to curl up into a ball and hide. Just thinking about going to the computer to learn another language to test more systems that I know probably wont work - I mean if there was a magic formula we'd all be rich, right - I got really scared. Like it was a race, and it was coming first or ... nothing. There is no second place. Once you decide to go to the start line you're in, and there's no exit. You have to win. I start to get all tense and jumpy... fidgeting around in my seat, zillions of thoughts going through my head... thinking about what I need to do to be successful... optimal positions, prepare for the drawdown with my name on it, test the system, select the markets bla bla bla but the most vivid thing was the feeling of losing... how it felt when I lost half my capital for being an idiot and how life would be if I lost the rest of it... which I know wont happen, cos I wont let it... its impossible... but that doesn't matter, cos its the feeling of not being able to make it work... being a failure... anyway ... it really scared me ... losing ... I felt like Id have no way to get it back ... kind of "its this or nothing". There's no way I can go back to a normal job. That would be like a death sentence. Trading is like a way to set yourself free. From yourself. Not so much for the money, but the way it irons out all your wrinkles. Like a mirror ... you can't avoid all your warts ... you either treat them or get wiped out. I feel like I arrived at a wall I cant get over and it scares me to death. I feel so stupid. Listening to myself it sounds like I shouldn't even be in the markets until I sort all this out. But the market is like the way to sort it out... I cant hide, or make excuses. And as I said, until I get the hang of it, I'm only risking pocket money, so Im not going to wipe myself out or anything. You know spread betting? I mean I do really small bets... always use stops... risk less than 1% of my risk capital on each position which is like 10% of my total capital... so even if the world imploded it wouldn't be a disaster. So trading is a way to learn, grow, get better. To me, what I most respect is a trader. Someone who can go into the markets and come out a winner. Its like that metaphor on the site. Its a path. Every obstacle I overcome makes me stronger. The money is a sign that I'm becoming coherent, one with myself. Only I'm stuck at the last fence... I feel so... stupid.
R - OK. You mention stupid. Where does that fit in?

H - Hmm stupid. I guess its not so much a feeling, more stuff I tell myself. Its kind of the summary of the other stuff. I mean I'm angry at myself, for not "seeing" the path - even going with the flow doesn't seem to make sense, cos judging by the systems I test, the flow is one way ... out! And I've tested dozens... moving average, breakouts, oscillators, you name it I'll test it. US, UK, Australia, commodities... I like breakout stuff best for some reason. Even though the results don't seem that great. Its like I'm missing something... I feel really stupid ... I mean other people can do it. I know I can too.. but I'm not. And the worst thing is I cant blame anything. Its not the markets, its not the systems, its me. Its what I'm doing and thinking. Its so humiliating. Its like I've spent years reading, testing, making mistakes and ironing out stuff one thing at a time. Now its like "showtime" - no more excuses, I have everything I need but I just cant get into it and "go with the flow" as that guy says. And I know its me. And I feel so small, so stupid. And its humiliating ... and that really gets me, cos in my head I know I'm not in competition with anyone. I've got nothing to prove. Being humiliated kind of implies I'm thinking other people are thinking stuff about me. You cant hide in the markets. You cant "pretend", drive a nice car, live on credit, pretend everything is cool. The only thing that counts is "can you do it?" There's no place to hide and the fact I don't seem to be able to, even though I know I've got what it takes makes me feel all that stuff ... hot ... tense ...taking deep breaths to calm myself and feeling like throwing it all in the air and going away to curl up in a ball and be a janitor or something. But I couldn't live with that ... cos I'll know ... no one else need know, but I will. I want to get on top of this thing. Get control of me. Get that Zen thing and go with the flow... but I got stuck somewhere. Just thinking about it now brings that frustration and the other stuff on. Like a big knot I cant get my fingers in to unravel. I don't really even understand what he's saying on the site. Accept... rejoice... and all that... Accept? How? Its there. I'm feeling it. Isn't that accepting? I cant deny it. Experience it and rejoice about something I'm labeling as bad? Am I labeling? I mean I'm feeling... and it doesn't feel the same as being happy, or in love, or eating an ice cream ... So according to the explication, I'm avoiding feeling it? But I'm aware I'm feeling it ... so how can I experience it more? Do what? Nothing? Go with the flow? What does that actually mean? I'm sitting here experiencing these feelings and what am I supposed to do? Are they all just supposed to disappear?

At this point, we gave up, had a beer and talked about soap operas. It seemed to be going round in circles. Any chance of putting a few more examples, transcriptions or more explanation of the process for us "insensitive" types. We've (I've) spent so many years learning to avoid showing feelings, being brainwashed that we need to be "in control" that its a bit hard to actually know what all this is about. Seems like you need a PhD in touchy-feely or Zen or something like that to actually know what to do... "Experience the feeling" sounds so simple.

Reading our transcript I can see the positive intentions... security, confidence, self-improvement, for example ... and can experience the feelings as being friends, sending warnings to CM ... but they're so inappropriate ... all at the wrong place at the wrong time... they're not necessary right now, and they get in the way of, or block, appropriate behaviour. I don't even want them to go away cos they're useful and helpful, but in other contexts. I just re-read the Getting to the Zero Point again and I understand all the words, but don't have a clue what you're talking about ... that's not a criticism of your writing by the way, but I can't see how you can know nothing and there be nothing you can know, and yet you still know its time to put on a position. Or get out of one. Sounds remarkably like "ignorance is bliss". I can appreciate being "in the now" and "zoning out" on the moment, but I cant reconcile this with having objectives ... which aren't in the now ... they're for later based on not being content with the now, wanting something I haven't got. If I'm "in the now, knowing nothing and with nothing I can know" how am I supposed to form objectives? Plan? I mean if I'm happy splashing in puddles, why would I want to, or even know that it was possible or necessary to, or that it was time to, step out of the "puddle" to think about what I want, or need, or would like? Just follow my feelings from one moment to the next? I've got everything I need now... I'm fine in the puddle ... until it dries up ... but then I'll be happy drawing in the dust... until I die of thirst... or my thirst tells me to go and find another puddle... I'm not trying to be facetious here, but its not going in... where can I get one of those Attitude Adjustment Tools you advertise? Do they come in "extra large" bit size? My paradigm needs changing ... the worst part is that I know everything I've written could be absolute rubbish, based on my "point of view"... which I'd like to change with your Process.

Hmmm ... "Just follow my feelings from one moment to the next"... "or my thirst tells me to go and find another puddle" ... there's a message in there somewhere ...
But that would be selfish and hedonistic, right? OK, I'll examine my feelings of selfish ... And its a lot of hard work! OK, I'll examine my feelings about hard work... And it means totally changing how I view myself and the world ... Yes! Quite right! How? TT! Still appreciate some "how to's" for keeping hot-seat on track and helping explore feelings and follow them through. Put yourself in the position of someone who hasn't got the slightest clue what you're talking about yet, but is enthusiastically trying to learn.

Nice job of reporting your session. Lots of good examples.


When your drama involves:


nothing works

I'm so dumb

I don't get it

I'm doing something wrong,

I'm stupid


... Fred can use TTP as just another opportunity to dramatize failure.


You seem to be experiencing OK ... you feel hot, pain in your stomach, picking at your nails.  You might have your receiver encourage you to amplify these sensations when they appear.


H: I feel hot and want to pick my nails.


R: Great! make it hotter and pick more.


H: The heat is gone. Now I want to curl up.


R: Good! Let your body curl up.


H: I want to get on the floor and curl up really tight.


R: Great! Get on the floor and curl up really tight.


While there are many productive feelings in your summary, there is even more analysis.  Analysis tends to sidetrack experiencing the feelings.  One antidote is:


H: blah ... blah ... blah ... analyze ...


R: Great! Get more into your mind and really analyze this, and be sure to avoid your feelings.


Since you seem to document well, I'd like to follow up on your progress.


Also, as long as you keep failing at this process, I'd recommend you keep failing at it, on purpose, joyously.




Until Fred Gets Through to CM


the drama is in the failing.



Clip: www.dgreetings.com/






Wed, 28 May 2003


Incline Village Tribe

Greetings, Mr. Seykota.

I'd like to inquire about the possibility of joining your Incline Village Tribe (I've read what the prerequisites are) but before I get to the point of asking to be considered for admittance, can you tell me what time and day of week the meetings usually start? I need to figure out if I have enough driving time after work.

Best to you ~

See Tribe Directory for details.

Wed, 28 May 2003


Hi Ed,

Since Thursday evening's Tribe meeting, I strongly feel the Process is what I need to help myself and others.

Would it be all right with you if I joined your Tribe meeting this weekend? I understand it is 1.5 days of the TTP, and a half day hike.



See Meeting Agenda.

Wed, 28 May 2003




Experience! So beautiful and so simple. Just to sit and enjoy the experience of what is happening now.

Interesting that some things I used to label as "bad" are quite lovely when I allow myself to experience them. Examples are as so called "negative" emotions like sadness, anguish, etc. I have found "happiness" in experiencing my "sadness."

When fighting, complexity is abound and the simple is extremely difficult. We yearn for simplicity and yet we grasp at complexity.

After letting go, the difficult becomes easy and the complex becomes simple.

Thank you Ed. You are one of my many teachers.

Your way of bringing simplicity to a seeker is a very beautiful thing.


Wed, 28 May 2003


Communicating with Tennis Fred

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I feel your web site is a great addition to the collective consciousness of learning to communicate with Fred. I feel I am creating significant dramas in my life, yet I'm not exactly sure what they are. I feel confused, anxious, and scared about not knowing what dramas I have set up.

Watching the French Open this morning, I witnessed Ashley Harkleroad successfully communicate with Fred. Playing in her first Grand Slam event ever, Ashley was winning up 5-1 in the third set. Winning the match against the 9th seed would be Ashley's greatest victory to date.


She stumbled (perhaps creating a drama) and Daniela Hantuchova, her opponent, roared back reeling off 5 straight games to go ahead 6-5.


I have played competitive tennis and the same situation (termed choking) has happened to me on numerous occasions. Usually the player that makes the comeback wins, especially if they were heavily favored in the beginning of the match, as Hantuchova was.


However, Ashley did something that I never did, and that I have seen very few players do. She cried during the match. On the changeover, Ashley put her head in her towel and shed some tears.


Most players would wait until after the match to feel their feelings of loss. After communicating with Fred, Ashley won the next two games and eventually won 9-7 in the third set.

I have constantly bought winners, that have went up 800% and 2000% however, I get out after making 10-20%. I feel like throwing up when I look at the charts head skyward, of course, failing to get back in. Maybe if I cried in the middle of the game, when the stock was up just 100%, I would be able to get back in.

Best Regards,


Ashley Harkleroad


upsets No9 seed Daniela Hantuchova in a three set thriller on Wednesday. Photo by: FFT

Clip: www.frenchopen.org/en_FR/news/





Tue, 27 May 2003


Application to Incline Village Trading Tribe

Dear Ed,

First I want to thank you for the opportunity to ask and getting precise, clear responses. And I want to thank you for taking apart my mixture of feelings I experience in competitive situations. It helps a lot.


My feeling "like a predator", which I enjoy is the absence of guilt or maybe rather suppression of guilt. I do not like feeling guilty and by imagining myself in an animalistic way, I feel less of it. But from now on, I want to experience all the feelings, let them take me where ... where they take me. I believe in the importance of feelings, let them be my compass.


I just realized a few seconds ago, as I am writing this, that there is an analogy between the following the feelings and trend following. And I know that it looks like many statements I see on FAQ, but there is something different about it. It is subtle and almost imperceptible. And that what I want from life, more feeling, be it subtle or rough.


My achievements may describe the degree of alienation and lack of intimacy in my life. At this point they are meaningless to me. All that matters is that I have come across the great opportunity to improve my life and the lives of others as soon as figure out more about the TTP. There is a level of knowledge that comes only from direct experience and that is what I want to do. Dive into the realm of feelings.

My understanding of TTP:

I have done a few sessions of something I imagined like a TTP with friends and I feel the results. I still have questions in my logical mind, but they may disappear as I go deeper into the Process.


So my understanding is more emotional that logical at this point. I observe relief and glimpse of happiness after the sessions. It is the feeling that I do not have to do anything, I can just stay where I am and ... that is it.

On a logical note: Fred wants to communicate the message. Part (all?) of the message is feeling. Suppressing the feeling disrupts the message. Fred is smart, continues to send messages until CM acknowledges it. To get the message two things may happen: the intensity increases or resistance decreases. As soon as they know we have a choice, it is up to us. We can keep repeating the message on higher levels through images, fantasies, dramas or decrease the resistance through TTP.

As far as the phone number, I want to keep it out of the internet. I like privacy. It is probably a sign of my willingness to hide. I talked to you two and a half years ago on the phone and I still have your number. If it the same (starts and ends with the same digit) ,I can call you and leave my number and other necessary information. Can you accept this form of application?

Can I join the Trading Tribe in Incline Village?

You seem to have a good grasp on the process, both in theory and in practice.


I strip out names, numbers and other ID from contributor emails, to protect privacy.


Commitment to regular attendance is a pre-requisite for admission to the Incline Village Trading Tribe. See Tribe Directory.


If you cannot commit to regular attendance, you might consider starting a Tribe or Intentional Community in your area.



Wed, 28 May 2003


Although it may be not believed, in Japan, many people blame deflation. The
economic news of television have repeated deflation blame every day. Almost
all economic analysts are talking that deflation cause a depression in the
TV program. Many people are also waiting eagerly for the inflation.


Was there any nothing that was swept away for the U.S. inflation of the 70s?

It seems that we can see examples of sweeping away in the hyperinflation
immediately after World War II in Japan.

The rich man only with deposit or national bonds went to ruin (since the deposit blockade was performed, the person only with deposit or national bonds could not get off). On the other hand, there were some persons who newly became rich by the stock and real estate.

Inflation is drama by Under Fred.


People who do not like the feelings of guilt, fiscal discipline, and others, get together and print up money.


If enough people experience their feelings and share them with others, drama disappears.


Alternatively, Under Fred makes the drama so large that everyone has to notice it.



Inflation Drama, Large Style


The lady pushes her wheelbarrow full of currency down to the corner market to buy groceries. She parks it on the sidewalk, along with the others.


When she returns to get her cash, she finds it in a pile on the sidewalk. The wheelbarrow is gone.


Clip: www.phoenixofsb.org/


Tue, 27 May 2003


Problems with Discipline

and Trend Following

Hello Ed,

I am having problems with discipline, following a mechanical system is not easy for me. My system only makes 1-2 trades a day to adjust positions.


I sit there in front of the computer all day and wonder the way most of us are brought up that hard work is the way to success, how can spending a few minutes a day placing orders be justified as hard work.

I always seem to have this urge to do non-system trades, a few of them work, then as usual I end up getting myself in trouble.

I feel I need to express myself in the markets and be right. I find it very hard to give up control to a mechanical system.

I have done the TTP and had some insights, had some clearing. However it seems that CM is putting up quite a fight. In the meantime my account continues to erode away.

What do you think? How do end of day traders learn to live with themselves, what shall I do during the day to occupy my time? I have a deep interest in psychology and like dealing with people.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

One way to find entry feelings for TTP is to commit to following your system and see what comes up.


Perhaps you have some feelings about CM putting up a fight.




A Good Receiver


keeps Fred on the line

and reels in the experience.



Clip: www.miseryisland.com/


Tue, 27 May 2003


Which to Buy

Hi Ed,

I want to buy a course to learn money management / trending methods.
Which one would you recommend?

Best Regards,

FAQ does not endorse  traders or commercial products, See Ground Rules.

Tue, 27 May 2003


Lake Tahoe Weekend Meeting

Original or Extra Crispy

Hi Ed,

We should be arriving about 5 or 5:30 on Friday. It's possible that I may get there earlier in the afternoon.


Some of us, from original Trading Tribe eight or ten years ago are looking forward to meeting some of the "New Tribe" members.

Everyone is really up for this!

OK, I'm covering the area around the hot seat with fire-proofing.


Friday Evening

Powwow  - Hot  Seats for All


Saturday Morning

Mountain Hiking - Bring Good Shoes


Saturday Evening

Musical Show - by Tribe Members




The Hot Seat

Sizzling Stool, Char Chair, Bun Toaster


We Put it on Extra Crispy

for Original Members


Clip: http://wkar.org/auction/


Tue, 27 May 2003


Getting Results

Hi Ed,

I've observed that the CM really has no idea of all the ways Fred's unresolved issues affect one's life.


Since uncovering just that one drama at a recent Tribe meeting, several fortuitous coincidences occurred in other parts of my life, leading to a reversion to the mean of life purpose. More than just trading improved.


Tue, 27 May 2003

Master of Emotions

Dear Mr. Seykota,

Just a note of thanks for the great insights on the website. I almost find I am learning more about life and emotions than about trading ... or is that really much the same since for many trading is a way of life.


I have always found that the hardest thing to do in trading and gambling (a favorite hobby of mine) is to actually do what you have set out to do without deviating from your pre-set, and in most cases, valid parameters.


By learning to know myself better and master my emotions I know I can only improve as things have not been bad for me but I could definitely do with a reality check on my emotions.

As of today, I do not have much to contribute to help others except to confirm that too much time is being wasted on systems and not enough on how to handle them ... and oneself, which is what you are so eloquently addressing.

One final point, although I am Anglo/Italian I live in Brazil and even though perhaps not ready yet to form a community due to many non-trading commitments I would welcome the opportunity to exchange ideas with like- minded individuals/trader in this part of the world.

The Trading Tribe promotes the flow of emotions from Fred to CM.


Thinking about emotions, trying to control emotions, talking about emotions ... are all different from experiencing emotions.




Thinking about Emotions


is different from experiencing them.



Clip: www.namidupage.org/



Tue, 27 May 2003



Given that you do not promote specific products or trading techniques, can you
recommend resources that elaborate on the relationship between fractals and
trading, beyond the book "Chaos"?

Thank you for your special contribution to our community,

The relationship between fractals and trading is the one you make.


You can find lots of references to fractals on line.



Mandelbrot Set


Tue, 27 May 2003

Tribe Meeting

On the long trip home I was thinking of an image of years ago that reminded me
of the purposes of the tribe.

A Catholic Priest founded a home for abandoned, homeless, and delinquent boys
during the depression.

It was a picture of of a boy carrying his sleeping little brother on his back,
looking up to the Priest who asked him "You carried him a long way, isn't he

The boy responds to the Father "He's not heavy Father, he's my bother."

Wishing you well,

He Ain't Heavy


by Sidney Russell and Herbert Scott, (c) 1977 Harrison Music Corp, Jenny Music (ASCAP)


The road is long
With many a winding turn
That leads us to who knows where
Who knows where
But I'm strong
Strong enough to carry him
He ain't heavy, he's my brother

So on we go
His welfare is my concern
No burden is he to bear
We'll get there
For I know
He would not encumber me
He ain't heavy, he's my brother

If I'm laden at all
I'm laden with sadness
That everyone's heart
Isn't filled with gladness
And love for one another

It's a long, long road
From which there is no return
While we're on the way to there
Why not share
And the load doesn't weigh me down at all
He ain't heavy, he's my brother

He's my brother
He ain't heavy, He's my brother.

Tue, 27 May 2003


Santa Barbara  Tribe

Dear Ed,

Thanks so much for all your work. I want to go with the trend, welcome all my emotions. Therefore, I want to start a Tribe here in Santa Barbara, CA. Thank you for making this possible.




Santa Barbara,

California !


You are now on the

Tribe Directory Page.



Trend Following Birds


know how to track the flow

of waves washing up on shore.




Fundamentalists Birds


might like to visit the Economic Forecast Project at UCSB, North Hall Room 1119


Pier: www.diy-photos.com/



Map: www.ucsb-efp.com/


Mon, 26 May 2003


Brazil Tribe

Dear Ed,

I wish to set up a Trading Tribe community in my town. As a matter of fact, I live in a small town and I will be glad to welcome members from all over the country.

With kind regards,




Palotina, Brazil !


You are now on the

Tribe Directory Page.






Tijuca National Park, near Guanabara Bay.


Clip: www.brasoccer2001.hpg.ig.com.br/


Mon, 26 May 2003


Trying to Choose a Feeling


Certainly, I acknowledge I feel quite uncomfortable whenever I have to deal with a feeling "I don't know". My mind is very analytical and I am known, even by friends and associates, for my tendency to carefully scrutinize a feeling before expressing it. I would feel myself like a machine, occasionally, just like a Terminator, choosing the "most appropriate" response to a given situation ...

Let's keep on task now, Ed.

With reference to the Process in the context of relationships with girls, an insight has popped up in my mind recently and I feel it's quite relevant. It happened when I was about 12-13 years old. I fell in love with a beautiful little girl then...Then I see myself in a birthday party, in her house. Other kids were dancing to the music. I danced with her a bit, but I could not talk to her about my feelings. I was very embarrassed then. I was very anxious to talk to her, but I just couldn't then, owing to my shyness. The party was over and everybody went home... The next day I sent her flowers and a card telling her about my feelings. Afterwards, before I could talk to her, her parents called mine and told them we were just too young to go on a date and that they could not allow that... I felt very frustrated... I hated myself for sending her the flowers and telling her about my feelings. From that day on I decided I would never fall in love again and tell anyone about my feelings, for that was a weakness of character ... I feel sad...

The feelings of embarrassment, shyness, wanting to know ... all provide good entry points for TTP.  As you experience the feelings, they may change.  Just keep tracking whatever presents.


Sounds like you are making some progress, and getting some insights.


A skillful receiver can facilitate the process and keep you on task until Fred gets the experience to CM.




Experiencing Shyness


is different from thinking about shyness.


Clip: www.alaska.net/~lance1/ page29.html


Mon, 26 May 2003



Dear Ed,

In the example with the bees and flowers, that is part of the description of the TTP, what is the purpose of repeating the experience?


To separate bees from the flowers (mentally) - to relearn?


Or the lesson has been learned, but CM does not acknowledge the feeling when it happens? Or something else... ?

Thank you.

Fred wants to send experiences to CM.  If CM is unwilling to receive, Fred keeps sending at higher and higher intensity, eventually resorting to entraining outside dramas.


To see how this works, take a button and attach a 2-ft string to it. Put the button in your ear and the string in your pocket. Notice people around you start talking louder, slower, and more clearly.


Freds have lots of ways to set up dramas in the markets for traders who are unwilling to listen to their feelings.






Considering how the whole system works, you can create a pretty good hearing aid for less than a dollar.


Clip: www.cpttm.org.mo/training/


Mon, 26 May 2003


Considering Volatility

Dear Ed,

I want to know if there has been a study done on bet size and risk considering volatility of the market.


As the volatility increases, the portfolio takes more heat considering the same bet size. Volatility can be working for your portfolio or against your portfolio.

Would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Warm Regards,

Your question is ambiguous as to the independent and dependent variables for the study. 


You might have some deep feelings about making the effort to think clearly.






Still Legal in Nevada



Clip: www.mcps.k12.md.us/


Mon, 26 May 2003

Predicting Change?

At what point do we as humans know when the outside forces have meaningfully changed? Isn't believing things have meaningfully changed inherently predicting future price action?


Which leads me to my next question? How does a trend follower who currently has a profitable system know when his trend following criteria will no longer work in the future? When does a regular drawdown turn into a potentially terminal one?


Is it when the current drawdown is bigger than the historical drawdown? If so, how does one know that the current drawdown isn't just the new historically worst drawdown and the systems will eventually correct itself out of its current tailspin.

Don't all of the answers to these questions rely on predictions on future price action and change, which I thought most people admit is unknowable?

You have no access to the past or the future. Your memories and predictions all occur in the present.


You might have some deep feelings about things that change on you.



Changing of the Guard

is a ceremony


Guarding Against Change

is futile.


Clip: www.capital-calling.com/


Mon, 26 May 2003


Reframing Boss and Mother

Dear Ed:

I am writing to describe an Aha Moment at the most recent Tribe Meeting.

I was on the hot seat because I had tested boundaries at my workplace. I was angry with my boss and I deliberately broke the dress code one day. This resulted in an argument with him.

By focusing on the feeling of anger in my chest on the hot seat, I eventually remembered a time as a child when my mother had scolded me for poor exam results. The Aha Moment was like a mild electric shock followed by a warm feeling in the back of my neck.

After speaking with the other members of the Tribe, I realized I was seeking approval from my boss in the same way I was seeking approval from my mother. As a child, it wasn't fair that she was angry with me when I had tried so hard on the test.

Had I not fully experienced my anger at the meeting, I'm sure I would be repeating this drama in the marketplace. (I recently began trading my own account for the first time.) I want to thank the other tribe members for creating a supportive environment. And thank you for sharing your methods with us.




Fred runs dramas over and over, and finds more and more situations to find disapproval, until CM acknowledges the experience.



Seeking Approval from Some Mothers


is like trying to squeeze lemon juice

out of a rock.




Be hearty in your approbation,

lavish in your praise,

- Dale Carnegie


Respect your own children's feelings.

and let them heal you.


Clip: www.amtrek.net/news/

Mon, 26 May 2003

Escaping From The Prison Where I Am The Warden

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I am naturally drawn to your trading tribe FAQ. When I read the messages and your responses I feel a sense of overwhelming calm, peace and contentment.

I believe you are providing an exceptional service. I thank you for creating this community.

I want to express one thought, much of what I believe you are espousing resonates deeply within me.


It reminds me of my experimentation with psychedelic recreational compounds - most notably my experience with psilocybin mushrooms.


While under the influence of this drug I lost my sense of myself, my reality became surreal, in effect my conscious mind dissipated and I was left with my unconscious mind (FRED) as my only guide, as my only filter of my reality.


To understand my world I was forced to feel my surroundings, as my ability to rationalize melted away, and the more I felt the more everything came back together.


My existence was no longer what I thought it was, it was what it was -- my existence -- clear, precise, flowing, existing.


Nothing made sense rationally but everything seemed to make sense intuitively; from the chaos and the feeling of angst of losing I (my consciousness mind, my ego, my ability to rationalize) was borne the ability to operate within my sphere of reality intuitively ќ to flow as though I was a part of oneness, a connection to everything.


Today I apply this existential awakening to my trading, and I notice that succumbing to this natural flow of energy has resulted in finding myself on the right side of the trend, and profitable.

Whether this awakening could have existed without the tool I will never know, however because the awakening is obviously within the realm of possibilities I believe anyone can experience it - with or without a tool.


The Trading Tribe does not intend dissipation of the conscious mind.  It celebrates the flow of experience from Fred to CM.


Problems with drugs:


they induce dependency

they skew the judgment

they usually wear off


You might consider your feelings about getting things you like, like big winning trades, just by liking them, without permission, obligation or tools.



Attitude Adjustment Tool


I'd rather have a full bottle in front of me

than a full frontal lobotomy.



Clip: www.hound-dog.com/


Sun, 25 May 2003

The Tao of Trading


Dear Ed Seykota,

I write firstly to THANK YOU for The Trading Tribe FAQ and for what I have
read of yours at www.turtletrader.com.

With my love of both Taoism and Objectivism, I find your FAQ fascinating and

My trading experience is a hand full of high risk trades in high tech stocks with poor but mixed results, followed by the realization that I didn't know what I was doing, followed by a lot of reading, thinking and planning. I've separated part of my last remaining stock holding into a small Roth IRA trading account, and will soon begin applying what I have learned.

My second purpose is to share with you my favorite translation of the Tao Te Ching passage that appeared in "amended" form in a FAQ question dated 5/23.

I believe this is exactly as translated by Gia Fu Feng (spelled from memory) and Jane English, but I don't have my original handy to verify.

The highest good is like water. Water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive. It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.

In dwelling, be close to the land.
In meditation, go deep in the heart.
In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.
In speech, be true.
In ruling, be just.
In daily life, be competent.
In action, be aware of the time and the season.
No fight: No blame.

Thanks again,

The Trading Tribe enables Taoists to experience the feeling of Tao to the point of disappearance.


The Trading Tribe respects a wide range of philosophies and religions, and endorses none in particular.




Taoist Yin and Yang


In Daoism, Yin and Yang, negative and positive principles of the universe, occur together; to truly know good, know evil; to possess something, be willing to let it go.


Wu Wei (without action), means doing things effortlessly, like simply following the trend of a market.



Clip: http://graphics.elysiumgates.com/




Sun, 25 May 2003


Living Without Excuses

Dear Ed,

I do make excuses. People in my life make excuses to me. Ed, your words have reverberated in my head since Wednesday and have provided me with much to think about.


Most people in my life do not speak to me without some fear of my response. I clearly see that I am an excuse maker, and I apologize to you and the rest of the Trading Tribe for my false justification for not coming to the meeting.

I have much in my life to be happy about, but I feel I my personal growth has remained stagnant, I want to grow. I want to be a member of the Trading Tribe.


I am a trader, I love to trade and have done so since the age of nineteen, it is my business. I am committed to the Trading Tribe and barring [xxx] I will not miss any meetings. Thanks for your time.

You might have some deep feelings about saying no to authority figures. 


Saying no, without excuses, avoids the expense of setting up excuses.


Traders might particularly avoid the excuse about "I can't afford it."




I think I'm feeling better now

that the test is over.


Clip: http://williams.es.brevard.k12.fl.us/