Sat, 14 Jun 2003
I thought one possible addition to your risk management article that might
be of some benefit could involve a comparison of short term vs. long term
(Below are some of my own observations I thought I would share).
What I have personally observed is while trends run longer (point wise) in
the long term, risk (point wise) also increases proportionately since pullbacks
that set up the breakout are also deeper. For example, a 400 point advance
might have pullbacks of, say, 80 points. If one looks for something longer
than this, perhaps an 800 point advance pattern that occurred, they might
find 160 point pullbacks along the way. Risk in each pattern being 1/5 the
potential profit (without commission considerations).
Now, I have also observed that if I have a fixed amount that I am prepared
to risk, say $100 per trade, that in the second example above I will need
fewer shares than the first example and thus incur less commission. This
appears to be true UNLESS my minimum risk tolerance decreases to an amount
that minimum commission is charged even with any decrease of shares.
For example, let's say that a long term pattern would produce the same
profit ($50) as the short term and where each has a risk of $10 (my maximum
loss tolerance). The only difference would be fewer shares needed for the
long term trade, thus let's say that 50 shares are needed for the long term
and 25 shares for the short term trade. Let's also say the brokerage company
charges a minimum commission of $5 for up to 100 shares. Thus, in this
particular example, whether I go with the longer term trend trade or the
shorter term one, and since my risk amounts (in dollars) in each trade are
the same, my commission has exactly the same % impact on both trades.
This brings me to my next observation: I must be willing to risk a dollar
amount where I can reduce the impact of commissions. But to do this safely,
I need an account large enough where the heightened potential dollar loss,
in order to reduce the significance of commissions, is not a dangerously
large % of my overall account balance. For example, if I find that risking
$100 per trade would be the level where commissions are drastically reduced
relative to overall profit potential, I need to make sure I have a $10,000
account balance if my goal is to keep any given trade at 1% risk of my
overall account balance.
Thus, it appears that the beginning account size is important for the above
So, in summary:
-Long term patterns require fewer shares to achieve the same profit as
shorter term patterns.
-Fewer shares lead to fewer commissions
-There is a level of low risk tolerance that cancels out the advantage of
fewer shares if the
the minimum commission amount per a certain amount of shares has been
-Even with risk tolerance at an amount where commission's negative impact is
reduced, the overall account balance must be larger if one wishes to
restrict trades to
a certain % risk of their overall account balance: say 1%.
Hopefully, the above was clear enough. Feel free to respond to any content
you agree with or have observed differently.
might consider the performance of your overall portfolio over a series of
many trades, as well as the action of individual components.
Air about Half the Time
Sat, 14 Jun 2003
So, let me change the question: which is the relationship between risk
management and the TTP in the context of trading?
BTW, I would like to share with you the following (would-be) creative
dialogue. CM is me and Fred are my feelings. It has happened this week.
CM - Hmm... I have been too addicted to watching intraday price action, even
though I am not a day-trader. Ironically, although I have been looking for
precision I end up with the opposite for relativity errors, missing major
trends and liquidating profitable positions a little bit too early.
Definitely I want to watch charts only after the day close, as I don't want
trading to interfere with my regular job... So, let's see. I will have to
trade longer term...
Fred: Protective Warning (PW)! O.K., but you might have to risk more per
CM: Right, but if I don't make the transition I will never be able to
overcome this issue. Moreover, I might risk more per trade but I will be
able to spot better reward/risk ratios to compensate for. This week I will
commit myself to watch the chart only after the close...
Fred: PW!!! I see your positive intentions. But now look here, this market
is vulnerable and your current position was taken from a short term
perspective and the short term trend is down! You'd better bail out at
CM: No, I won't. I have to pay a tuition if I want to make some improvement.
This Friday I will wait for the weekly close...
Fred: PW!!! You can reposition yourself later. Bail out at breakeven and
reposition yourself later when the opportunity comes in the new time
CM: Nope. If we have a strong close today (Friday), above $xx, then we might
have a powerful move next week.
Fred: PW! O.K. But I urge you to put on a stop near breakeven. Take a small
loss and let's resolve this issue. The market is vulnerable.
CM: O.K. I will put this stop. (At this point I put the stop at the
suggested price)... Hmm... Do you know what? I want to make this change in
my trading. I will cancel this stop and wait for the weekly close.
At this point I canceled the order and Fred was ignored. CM and Fred didn't
reach a compromise. On Friday, intraday price action reached the breakeven
point, met strong resistance and collapsed, giving a weak weekly close...
Fred: There you are with the tuition you wanted...
CM: Yes. But this is a relative small tuition and could spare me thousands
in the future...
Fred: No, you're wrong. This way you are paying your tuition with a student
loan and in the future you might have to pay it fully with high interest
a simulation of Fred and CM in your mind is different from experiencing Fred
pattern of using conversation to avoid feelings seems to extend to
conversations with yourself.
works as a community project.
you never have to be alone.
Sat, 14 Jun 2003
... I thought you might like to know that I’m next to certain I’ve had
an A-HA! Of course, I’m open to outside interpretation of the experience
I’ve recently had, however, I can’t see how it could be otherwise.
These past few weeks I’ve really made an effort to try and feel….well,
the way I feel. I’ve been reading over and over the lines at FAQ that seem
to strike a cord in myself, mainly those that pertain to the collective
“wisdom” of traders old and bold, trying to find answers of course to
the great trading question so to speak. I also recently bought and read
‘Emotional Intelligence’ and ‘The Art of Speculation…’ and have
reread parts of Market Wizards and The New Market Wizards as well as
Reminiscences. I began underlining the passages that made sense from what I
thought was the perspective of the TTP. I began to think that I would
probably never get to experience what an A-HA was and so never get to know
the real me, or rather Fred, and finally listen to what he has been trying
to tell me all these years. I perceived my chance of observing the TTP in
person at a tribe meeting was not so great and I thought there would be
even less chance of starting a tribe where I live. That would mean having to
face my fear of public speaking, social anxiety, or the fear of ridicule,
embarrassment, and rejection. (Seems loaded I know…but stick with me)
Well, the weeks went by and day by day I mulled over the ‘wisdom’ I had
read but yet did not feel. Then a few things happened; none of which had
anything to do with trading or trading psychology but nonetheless allowed me
to use and benefit from the wisdom of what the TTP tries to teach. My
wife’s grandmother became very ill which caused tremendous stress and
sadness in her life. For close to two weeks she had to deal with the roller
coaster of emotions that happen when someone close is about to die. Let me
add here that she pulled out of it and is now OK. However that time was very
hard for her. Her grandmother was suffering from Dementia for some months
and that added a layer of pain for her and her family. It was a very trying
time for my wife.
I thought that I empathized with them. I could put their feelings into
words, but I for some reason could not feel what they felt. I was not sad. I
was not angry or fearful. I did not feel those things. Likely I haven’t
been really feeling these feelings for years, or if you like ‘experiencing
them’. I’ve been told that I show very little emotion and that I never
talk about what’s on my mind; keep things bottled up. I see this in myself
and have been concerned about for this for some time. I ‘knew’ of
the benefit of expressing your feelings or conveying them to others however
I realize now that knowing and doing are two very different things. I was
not experiencing them.
This did not go unnoticed by my wife or her family and in her hour of need I
was nowhere near. She was doubly hurt and angry; and rightfully so. For two
weeks I was selfish, apathetic, and unsupportive. At the time I did not see
it but knew that I was unable to feel their pain and tried to put on a
half-assed job of being empathic. It did not work and the result was that my
wife was so hurt that she considered separating from me for awhile to deal
with her emotions and her unhappiness. When she conveyed this to me, it
finally started to sink in, albeit slowly. I had been oblivious to her
anguish which complicated an already difficult situation for her.
I became reflective of my life and thought about times past when I felt sad,
fearful, and hurt. Regrettably I found it hard to locate any but a few
times when I remember really feeling strongly. Special cases came to mind
such as when my parents divorced when I was ten, feeling angry at a
neglectful father, being upset when I was young and teased or ridiculed by
my peers. One feeling or emotion stood out though, and that was anxiety.
Anxiety I feel when I fear public speaking, being embarrassed or ridiculed,
neglect … whatever. Anxiety was a state that I could relate to; one that I
have had a lot of experience with and one that has been played out in so
much drama of my adult life. I began to think of what made me anxious,
reread parts of the book ‘Emotional Intelligence’ and began to
understand in a limited way that the anxiety I felt was learned
physiological responses of my subconscious mind. It made zero logical sense
to me for so long but affected so much of my life.
The next thing that happened is that I began to open up to my wife and tell
her these things that I had ‘discovered’. I tried rather. I still had
trouble discussing painful aspects of my childhood for whatever reason. It
felt uncomfortable and I guess true to TTP theory those feelings were
blocked, misdirected, ignored, whatever, for so many years that simply
talking about them to the one person I love more than anything was
difficult. Again the irony did not go unnoticed by me, however I saw a
window, and started remembering lines and passages that I had read on FAQ
that somehow pertained to my situation. Still, it was very hard and maybe a
little frustrating but I knew I was on the right track to finding a solution
to my emotional dilemma.
This Tuesday past I received a call from my stepsister who told me that my
father had been rushed to the hospital for treatment of a severely painful
intestinal blockage. Surgery might be necessary however beyond that facts
were sketchy. I was well … I don’t’ know how I felt if I felt anything
at all. It sounded rather serious but not life threatening. I was able to
get a hold of him later that day on the phone and wished him well and he
told me about the pain he was experiencing and what not, but I felt he was
in good hands, having made it to the regional hospital some 2 ½ hours from
where he lives. The next day I went to work and thought of him a little but
fully expected to come home to find email or a phone message saying that he
was fine. I was quite taken aback to read an email from my sister explaining
that the doctors had found cancer in his bowel and the tumor was the source
of his intestinal blockage.
Right at that
moment I knew the situation took on a whole new meaning and the seriousness
of the situation increased dramatically. Still, after all this, I felt
little more than mild fear for him.
I was ashamed yet passive. I sat down and thought about it. Yes, my
father and I had never been close and as a young boy his neglect hurt me
many times; but why was there such a wall now between me and my emotions.
After all, it is very normal to feel lots of fear and sadness after
receiving such news.
My wife came home
to find me deep in thought or rather determined to feel what I thought
should be the emotions I ‘should’ have been feeling. I tried to amplify
the feelings in my body. I felt heavy headed, very lethargic, my face was
drawn, my stomach was tight, I felt cold … and yet I did not know if what
I felt was sadness or what. It scared me. I could not believe I had become
an unfeeling entity with little capacity for empathy. It felt grizzly. I
couldn’t help thinking of the lines I read in ‘Emotional Intelligence’
about those sorry people who had no empathy, the child molesters, the
rapists and psychopaths. Well … with that I think some sadness started
seeping through. I began to cry a little and my wife expressed that
perhaps I should get time off from work and go be with him as that was what
she should do and probably what my father might appreciate. All the while
and on the 3 ½ hour drive that followed I kept trying to be conscious of
how I felt. I felt sad at times but for varied reasons.
I wanted to keep
my father foremost in my thoughts however old memories started playing about
my mind and for some reason distressing episodes of my life kept popping up
and at times I cried a little. Mixed in was a lot of anger. My mind kept
creating scenarios where I would be telling people off and threatening them
and I knew that somewhere inside I had a lot of anger to release.
Soon after, I arrived at the hospital. I found my father in intensive care
and recovering. He was alert and felt well. I learned from my stepmother
that the surgeon had been since by and said that the surgery went well and
that the tumor was successfully removed with no signs of cancer anywhere
else. He also expressed how fortunate my father was in getting to the
hospital when he did as his bowel was about to burst from pressure. My
father was twice lucky. He had cheated death without a moment to spare and
was also a cancer survivor. My stepmother was quite shaken but my father as
usual seemed unfazed.
He was grateful of
course and extremely relieved, especially from the pain, but his emotions
struck me as one not suited to someone who had just knocked on deaths door. Then
I realized just how alike we were. All my life I’ve been trying to avoid
becoming the father I knew; the one with money problems, always in debt, the
seemingly unfeeling person, the neglectful parent. What I had feared most
about him I had become … or so it seemed at the time, and still does.
I made an effort in the next two days to give him as much support as I could
and to try and get him to talk about how he felt about the whole situation.
His replies were always short and I knew that his feelings did not reflect
the seriousness of the situation, regardless of how conscious he said he was
of his good fortune. I began to feel that I wanted to be there for him and
to try and comfort him anyway … and I did as best I could. His speedy
recovery despite being less than two days since his surgery amazed me. His
aloofness with regard to his now having a colostomy on top of his bout with
cancer scared me. I couldn’t figure out if he really ‘felt’
relieved or knew logically that he was lucky. I still don’t know.
The point of this long story begins here. The ride home today by
myself gave me time to reflect on what had transpired these past few weeks
and the recent events with my wife, her grandmother, our marriage and of
course my father. I again tried to be conscious of how I felt about all
these things, what was going on under my skin, in my head, and mostly in my
heart. (At this point things started to get fuzzy) Somehow I began to
feel sensations that I had never been aware of before. I felt off. My throat
was tight, I was flushed, and I felt keyed up and tired at the same time, I
felt cold. These are the sensations I have when I experience anxiety but yet
I was not anxious.
I began to think
of my father and how much I still love him despite the resentment that I had
carried for so many years. I thought of my wife and our marriage and how
alone she must have felt those two weeks not long ago. I began to cry,
and I began to feel sadder than I can ever remember. I cried aloud and my
chest heaved. There was pressure in my head and I felt emptiness inside. My
thoughts drifted off and I became engulfed in the feelings in my body, the
tears, the crying aloud, the pressure in my forehead from exertion, the
sadness that I felt. I felt so very sad. I cried uncontrollably and yet it
felt so good. I was letting out what seemed like a life’s worth of
I thought of
nothing sad…but I was so very, very sad. Then it dawned on me that I was
fully experiencing the sadness that for so long I had been hiding. It was
wonderful. I was crying aloud and I couldn’t have been more satisfied. The
feelings started to subside and eventually disappeared but I was so happy
that I began to laugh. I laughed and I cried again … then I laughed
some more. I can’t ever remember having tears of joy but that is how I
felt. It was exhilarating and draining at the same time. I felt the sadness
for so many things. For the loss in my life, the feelings of being neglected
after my parents divorced and my mother moved away. I cried as if I were a
little boy. And it all made such perfect sense. I felt as a child.
I began to think of other fears in my life and my social anxiety. It brought
back so many memories of being young and fearful. Fearful of ridicule from
peers, shame for my family, the hurt that was always present but never let
out. It all made such sense. The sensations flooding my body were what Fred
had been so long trying to tell me to no avail and the anxiety I felt was
the consequence. The world opened up and I began to feel it all.
I felt lonely for
my wife, sad for a troubled childhood, regret for the pride of not giving in
to the feelings I still had for my father. I saw things in a different light
and I my thoughts eventually drifted back to trading … the very thing
that had invaded my thoughts hourly for a few years. It was if someone
turned on a light switch and the quotes and wisdom of famous traders took on
new meaning. I somehow felt I knew intimately what they were talking about.
I empathized, something I have been so poor at for so long.
The ride home for me today seems now almost surreal. My senses seemed
flooded with what was coming in from outside, and I felt a surge of
creativity in my thinking. My thoughts exploded with hopes and dreams and I
yearned to tell my wife all about it. I wished she were there and then I
began to understand how critical it is to ones life to be able to experience
your feelings. I felt pain today, and sadness, and many emotions that I
would have never before wanted to … but it was awesome … everyone should
have this experience, this emotional orgasm.
It’s now been some time since this experience and I don’t know if words
can accurately describe it anymore. There is so much more I wanted to say
but I don’t know now if what I’m saying can do it justice. What I
experienced today was like nothing I ever thought possible. Whether or not
it was an A-HA to me is irrelevant. It was what it was and my life has now
changed and as I practice and learn I know that nothing is impossible.
tribe process has shown me the way to a door within myself that had been
locked for so many years. Somehow today I was able to open it. There is no
doubt in my mind my life has somehow changed for the better.
I can’t wait for my wife to come home so I can tell her I love her and
share this wonderful feeling with her.
to Feel Grief
anything else that comes along.
Sat, 14 Jun 2003
Hello Mr. Seykota!
I'm a 28 year old male living in Vienna, Austria. Currently I'm reading
"Market Wizards" by Jack Schwager and am very impressed with the
wisdom contained in this book.
I'm dealing with the stock market quite intensely since about seven years,
and I'm now going to start to do trading on my own account.
experimented in the markets since a couple of years, contributed to several
stock-market-related web sites, written a stock market letter nobody was
reading - and was lacking of the courage to just say "O.K., now I start
to trade on my own account"...
However, I've started with 500.- Euros and my goal ist to double them 10
times in about a year - wich would make 500.000.- out of them. We'll see...
math seems correct. I don't recall reading in Market Wizards or elsewhere
about a system that doubles equity ten times in a year. I wonder about
the drawdowns and feelings that go with it.
columns for drawdowns or feelings.
Fri, 13 Jun 2003
A Phone Call
How are you?
Some issues have come up in our group group that I would like to run by you.
I was wondering if you could kindly give me a call?
All of us have done a good job with TTP, so now the deep seated issues come
up very rapidly. It seems all of us are wounded birds and are having a
tough time coming to terms with how to share our inner most secrets with
is no need to share secrets. Sounds like you might still be talking
story and drama as a way to avoid feelings.
might start out by sharing your own feeling about not wanting to share
feelings with strangers.
Talk to Strangers
might convert them to friends.
If you wish to talk with me in person, you can attend a seminar, likely in
October at Lake Tahoe, or email me about private consulting.
Fri, 13 Jun 2003
Short Term Trading
Dear Mr Seykota,
I appreciate having the opportunity to interact with you and am learning a
lot from your website.
I have a simple question regarding short term trading. You and others have
stated that short term trading can not be as profitable as long term trading
since transaction costs eat into profits and magnify losses.
It is not because
trends do not occur in short time frames as they clearly do. Since markets
are fractal in nature, this makes sense.
Therefore, if transaction costs were able to be reduced proportionately
such that a reduction in timeframe did not lead to them being a larger part
of costs incurred, then short term trading could be just as profitable as
long term trading. Is that a correct conclusion to draw?
your feelings about wanting to justify your positions by using
qualifications and excuses.
Pigs Had Wings, They Could Fly
Fri, 13 Jun 2003
Thanks for your response regarding my email dated May 29th. I noticed
that you did not address my issue of taking counter trend positions.
This reoccurring habit of mine is an even bigger problem than letting
profits run and once again has gotten me into trouble this week as equity
indices have continued to rally.
To try and explore these issues I volunteered my wife as receiver. She
read your white paper on TTP and was willing to help me. At first I battled
with her big time as I am very bad at describing or showing feelings or
emotions (things I consider too 'touchy/feely'.)
We made what I
deemed to be little progress, however this morning I had a bit of
breakthrough on my own.
I believe my issues have to do with my father. He has been trading
futures/stocks for years and taught me his system of trend following using
I know if his
system is followed you will be with the trend but I also resent the fact he
is too risk-averse and has not made an absolute fortune with his trading.
In analyzing some
of my larger losing days this year I found a common theme of phone calls
either to or from my father.
I undoubtedly had
a profitable counter trend position and would describe it to him. He would
tell me its just a counter trend move and to watch out for the market to
turn. The drama I (Fred) then created was to try and prove him wrong by
sticking with my 'right' position despite the market reversing on me and
triggering my s/l(which I would ignore).
The source of the
drama's are not limited to my father either. I had many similar days as an
F/X dealer proving that my head trader / analyst / co-worker etc was wrong
and I was right about my counter trend positions (the steady flow of
customer business allowed me to finance my 'bad' positions by pinching money
off the customer trades and overall finishing with a positive P + L).
This morning I have had a minor 'aha' , however I realize there is more work
to be done. I have many other questions I would love to ask you but will
limit this FAQ to a very big THANK YOU for helping me 'shake the habit.'
--sorry if everything is not SVO-p . I am working on that as well
your feelings about being wrong and /or making others wrong.
Just Another Type of Relationship.
Fri, 13 Jun 2003
Dear Mr. Seykota,
Can I quote you from one of your replies in the FAQ on a report in which
I'll be writing? Thanks.
may quote a sentence or two from FAQ, with attribution, for non-commercial
may not use or sell FAQ materials without a license.
Fri, 13 Jun 2003
I would like to ask you two clarifying questions with regard to trading and
How does technical analysis relate to the TTP?
Traders often talk about being discretionary traders or mechanical ones.
Is there such a definite distinction in the zone?
and distinctions are judgments, not object properties.
for a pattern of of asking meaningless questions to steer conversations away
here often? Say, what's your sign? What's the relationship between the cow
and the moon?
Thu, 12 Jun 2003
How to overcome
the guarded feeling
in a Tribe
In the Manhattan group we have had three meetings so far and things are
progressing well. Everyone is starting to do a good job with the very
One thing however that is starting to surface is that most of us are not
willing to open up fully, its that feeling of not wanting to share our inner
most secrets and painful events in a public setting.
What advise would you have for us? This being summer, some of us thought
that holding a tribe meeting in Central Park may help. Rather than staring
at each other in an office settings, perhaps we could take some sandwiches,
sit on a blanket and share our feelings, in an open conducive setting under
an open sky...
There have been couple of incidences where we had to terminate TTP early
because the person didn't feel comfortable going any further.
I look forward to your comments.
your willingness to encourage clams to clam up even more.
around methane seeps on the bottom of Monterey Bay, where hydrogen sulphide
in the sediments would be toxic to most other animals.
to pry a clam open, can make it clam up even more.
(c) 1995 MBARI
Thu, 12 Jun 2003
Good Morning Ed.
I’m writing for inclusion in your TTP program – as I feel I could make
significant contributions to the group and, of course, can commit the time
and energy necessary.
I hope you enjoy my essay as much as I enjoyed writing it.
p.s. Fred says “Hi!”
TTP can be TNT
if your MO is
your IQ is 3D
not in AA!
The Trading Tribe Process feels to me like a breath of fresh innovation next
to an assembly line of “proven and reliable trading systems – yours for
only $2,995 plus tax!”
After all, what is the market but the kinetic expression of mass psychology?
The Trading Tribe Process is the first process I’ve discovered that
gets to the true root of not just successful trading, but successful living.
better understanding of our own incredibly complex and breathtaking
psychological power can we truly begin to direct this power toward more
productive endeavors. I, for one, have spent a great deal of time and
study dedicated to development of my mind and making ever more attempts at
harnessing its power for the good of myself and others – specifically my
new wife and family.
But I can’t do
it alone, so this is where the Trading Tribe Process enters the picture.
Funny how the axiom of “when the student is ready, the teacher appears”
can often be more true than trite.
It was about four years ago that I read a very important book entitled “The
Disciplined Trader” by Mark Douglas and immediately started to realize the
starring role psychology plays in any trading theater.
accelerating appreciation for supporting cast members we can call
self-discipline and objectivity, my trading future suddenly shifted from a
series of opening weekends to a steady monthly series where the star and
supporting cast showed up on time, did their jobs well and served far more
people in the long run.
It is the idea of service that most attracts me to the Trading Tribe
Process. At the moment, I am not precisely certain how my life’s goal of
serving more and more people will come to fruition, but I have unparalleled
faith that the answer will present itself when the time is right.
In the mean time,
I can be of service to others by becoming a successful trader – thereby
providing a living for the many individuals who earn their keep as brokers,
floor traders, runners and the like. Every time I make a successful trade, I
am able to serve those people again by placing more and better trades and so
on. For this, my individual service may be limited, but my capital serves
others every minute it is working in the markets. Perhaps I am already on
the road to serving a great deal of people through becoming a successful
trader with large amounts of capital available for companies to build, grow
and finance expansion. But I cannot do it alone – nor should I attempt to.
The more I learn, the more I realize there is to learn. This statement is
perhaps one of the most powerful orts of wisdom ever uttered and I thank my
lucky stars to have been blessed with the intelligence to understand it and
the humility to accept it.
mean I’m devoid of knowledge, nor exempt from making efforts to support
others who might need assistance – as I heartily accept support from those
willing to do so. In fact, I believe it means that I have a DUTY to be as
supportive as possible to others and it is my PRIVILEGE to do so!
As a regular
volunteer at [xxx], I have come to realize what true service is. Not
necessarily the donation of material possessions – although that can be
vital at times – but the giving of one’s own spirit through caring and
support of another and their goals of becoming the very best person they can
In the case of a
blind child who MUST trust me with their life at times – and does so
willingly with an unencumbered pure faith – the privileges and rewards of
serving others are only becoming more precious as I grow.
participation, including consistent attendance, is essential. See Tribe
Thu, 12 Jun 2003
We had our first meeting yesterday. It felt odd at first to air my trading
experiences to a complete stranger, yet as we went on talking and expressing
our feelings there were moments where "it" felt right and I felt I
was being helped in some way. We agreed to meet again and I'm already
looking forward to it.
Wed, 11 Jun 2003
I was interested in the letter describing the market as a "she".
I've read that female brains have nor connections between left and right
In autism, the
connectors are possibly underdeveloped. Physical movements help develop the
connectors. In autism, sensory perception must be kept simple to avoid
overwhelm which precipitates a shutdown / meltdown emotionally and
When a receiver is effective, that person keeps the sender focused on the
feeling that Fred is communicating. How difficult but simple the process is
to keep focused on the feeling. Glad you are developing training for the
Aside from all that. Evolution works its process quickly in some situations.
Ex. changes in the shape of bird bills in response to seed sources. It is
not limited to the eons. As the tempo of dance increases and slows to
interest and delight of the dancers and the viewers, so does the process of
evolution. Something other than ourselves is calling the tune. Dance on!
Likes to Dance
a floor, on Astaire,
on Ginger's foot.
Wed, 11 Jun 2003
Dear Mr. Seykota,
I wanted to relate a mini aha! that I experience this evening.
I received a phone call from a friend that is going through difficult times.
Lately, I have been feeling increasingly frustrated with the person for no
apparent reason. The conversation began as before. I sighed inside and
prepare myself to be battered like a ship in a storm. Before I snapped I
decided to talk through my feelings.
What an amazing world opened! I started out with my feelings of
helplessness. I realized these feelings led me to be angry that I could not
help my dear friend. I realized that I was transferring my anger into my
displeasure with my friend. As I talked all of this through, my face and
head warmed up and felt somewhat dizzy. When that feeling passed I felt much
more at peace.
This is such a small start, but thank you for my mini aha!
Wed, 11 Jun 2003
I think my writing to you and your sometimes brutal and brutally funny
responses are helping (Sometimes corny responses too! Don't get too big of a
head Mr. Bigtime trader!). It is good to correspond with someone who
"Tells it like it is." I admit sometimes I need a kick in the
pants since my parents are not around anymore. There is no actual place that
I know of, for traders to learn from another successful trader in a
"continual forum like atmosphere" except here.
If I was a mechanic I could talk to expert mechanics, if I were in medical
school I could talk to successful doctors. This is the first time I have had
the opportunity to correspond repeatedly with a successful trader! What a
I made it through the 5th or 6th round of layoffs in my company but continue
to be driven to become an independent trader or possibly fund manager
trainee/assistant for a firm. Since I don't have my masters degree, the
latter does not seem immediately possible (No responses to resumes sent for
the past few years). I guess I just don't look good on paper?
Regarding my last e-mail about "Risk" on Monday June 2, 2003. I
understand what you wrote. I ended up selling most of my positions the
next few days nearly broke even. Some of the stocks started to reverse on me
and the market did not look good all of a sudden. In other words, I did a
lot of trading for nothing!
Regarding my e-mail to you titled "Re-Buy" on Saturday May 10,
2003 I think I am clearing up on that subject also. I recently re-bought
[xxx] & [yyy]. Yes, I bought too much of both but I feel clear since
I was able to express my problem about re-buying with you. I am not fearless
but am willing to take some big risks with my own money.
I know I can get
killed and will reduce risk if my account grows closer to the $500,000 mark.
Currently still at $140,000. Lets see if I am clear now on
I must remember your Friday May 9 response to that tribe member where you
say "You might even try these." I say again, the four things you
listed = "Priceless".
Wed, 11 Jun 2003
I got your reply in the TT forum regarding my initial question dated June 9
(below). First, thank you for being so clear and direct.
I am amazed
(shocked?) that systems you or Rich Dennis/other greats might have used do
not differ much from the trend systems available to me.
It DOES make
sense that the operator of the system is the biggest "X" factor,
however. This gives me hope that I have a chance, once I work thru the TTP
process and improve the connection between Fred and CM, to be a very
Oh, and you are probably right about needing to explore feelings of doing
things on my own. That comment seemed to strike a chord somewhere within. I
am anxious to attend my first meeting and help others as well as myself. I
realize I have the tools ... I just need to get CM to hear what Fred is
Thank you, Ed, for your time and commitment to others. This might be an
off-the-wall suggestion, but have you ever considered listing some of your
favorite charities in the event those that you've helped want to give back
in some way?
I know you
won't accept payment, but maybe you have an organization we could return a
little "karma" to? Just a thought.
God bless and keep up the great service!
you can make a contribution as a member of one of my favorite dis-organizations
... namely, the free enterprise system.
join up, go find something you like to do and do it really well ... you can
directly increase quality of life on the planet receive rewards in the
Wed, 11 Jun 2003
Lizard on a Rock
I recently shared your "Lizard on a rock" story with a friend. The
story offers a great metaphor for trend following and I tend to think about
it every day. Could you please share it with the FAQ members because I feel
it would greatly benefit the group.
Our group had an excellent session ... I really feel the power of the TTP.
it goes something like this ...
lizard ... just hangs around on the rock ... and waits and waits and waits
... for his pattern to show up ... and when a bug comes along, he makes his
move, right from the gut, without thinking about it.
When trader becomes that automatic, then he, too, can hang around on a rock
and catch a lot of bugs.
Tue, 10 Jun
Miami First Meeting - June 18
The Miami Intentional Community is holding its first meeting on Wednesday,
June 18th, 2003. The four participants met casually last Wednesday to check
We got a taste of the Process and feel very comfortable with experiencing
feelings right off the bat. We occasionally wandered off with analysis about
feelings but we are aware of it during the occurrence. Experience to
experience more experience.
The participants will hold meetings every 1st and 3rd Wednesday of the month
and joyously welcome interested individuals in the area.
Thank you for providing individuals a place that spawns curiosity and
me know a time and phone number so I can call in to wish you well during
your first meeting.
Tue, 10 Jun 2003
At our last meeting, I offered to go on the hot seat. Here is a brief record
of my experience in feelings:
I feel frustrated when I am unable to help someone I care about.
I feel responsible for making my mother happy.
I feel guilty when she is suffering and I choose to let her find her own way
rather than answer her calls for help.
I feel a strong physical exhalation and I begin to cry. My conscious mind
spurts out: “She’s rebelling.”
I return my focus to the feelings. I feel disgust, anger and a sense of
wonder. I feel Goosebumps and my hair standing on end.
Guilt and frustration are hard to feel now. I feel lighter.
The above feelings represent a summary of about 45 minutes on the hot seat.
I am very
grateful to the tribe for their efforts in reflecting my feelings. They
provide a very supportive environment as I can literally see, hear and feel
their reflections in their faces, words and physical actions.
process is designed for groups. For the last week, I have been unable to
replicate the feelings I was feeling before the meeting. Guilt and
frustration almost seem silly. I know that Fred has more to teach and I look
forward to my next hot seat.
Tue, 10 Jun 2003
Thought I'd touch base and see if you can offer any advice.
I've spent the last year trading everyday and continuing my education. After
a year of day trading stocks, 2 months ago I switched to trading the futures
(much cleaner, not so many games).
I also have
trading the S&P under tutelage of a friend of mine that runs a hedge
But my family is getting tired of my "quest", and I would
really like to get away from having to learn everything the hard way.
Is there any "trading" companies in the Los Angeles area that you
know of that I could contact for a position?
do not have a list of companies that can provide you with:
to get tired of your quest
for hard work
those seem to be elements of your current drama, you may already have the
you allow Fred to communicate with CM, you might dissolve your dramas and go
for right livelihood, perhaps even trading in LA.
Mon, 9 Jun 2003
May I make a Chinese website and translate some of your site content in
may not copy FAQ to another site.
you can come up with a translation of the TTP page into Chinese, I would
like to post it to this site.
suggest you practice with TTP for a while before attempting to write about
Mon, 9 Jun 2003
I've been a fan of your TTP site for awhile now, mostly staying in the
background observing and catching on. I am a relatively novice trader,
using a 'robot' system right now to carry out demo trades but not too
comfortable because I don't know what has gone into the systems the robot
As I mature with the TTP and plan to attend a live session regularly in the
near future, I had a business question for you:
I need a system. May I retain your professional services, or are you retired
from that particular challenge?
I am looking for:
a system to follow and take advantage of trends in the spot forex market (I
don't trade other markets)
This system would have to cover all aspects of the trade, from signal,
decision, entry, exit, risk etc.
It would need to
be either written in TradeStation 2000i language, or be able to be
translated into that language.
Can you help me, sir? I realize the importance of knowing oneself and the
relationship between Fred and CM, and now I'd like to work on getting a
system designed that I can trust and follow without question. I know you
have achieved some noted success, and was hoping you might be available for
a pipsqueak like me.
Thank you for any consideration. I await the "yes" or "no
thanks" and any details such as meetings, fees etc.
are very few differences between trend following systems, other than the
time constant (how frequently it trades). There are huge differences between
the abilities of traders to follow simple systems.
might look at your feelings about doing things on your own.
Son becomes the Father
Mon, 9 Jun 2003
I like you to know that You and the TTP process has made a dramatic
difference in my trading, I have had some astonishing results.
I have been
trading for a long time, much longer than I care to admit, however I have
never been able to trade in a consistent successful manner.
The TTP does take some getting used to and much practice. But by keeping
at it, I have finally had my aha's. I have finally started to communicate
with my best friend Fred, who has been looking after my best interest all
Tears roll down my cheeks as I write this, I have had a very difficult life,
the difficulties didn't just happen once or twice but lasted the first 27
years of my life, being ridiculed in school and being called a moron
because of a severe speech impediment. All those earlier memories stayed
with me, even as I have children now. Although I had much success in other
professions but never in trading.
Despite a frantic effort on my part in learning NLP and half a dozen
other techniques, having had 50+ sessions with a whole litany of therapists.
All in vain to erase my past.
All I had to do was to ACKNOWLEDGE my feelings from my past, fully
experience them. Fully experience my feelings of sadness, the feelings of
the constant terror that some people with stuttering live with.
Its amazing how effortless my trading is now, I do things in my best
interest. Whatever God given talents I have, they are now finally finding a
voice, without any drama from Fred. God bless you Ed for sharing TTP
Mon, 9 Jun 2003
Hong Kong Tribe
Thanks for this great site.
This site is excellent. I want to join the tribe. My name is Kelvin Hui, I'm
a private trader starting my own operations from my home country, Hong Kong.
The first time (around 1 year ago) I knew you was from the book of
"Market Wizards". After reading this book, I typed you name in
Google and searched all info about you. I think you are a special one, and
you are a real life example to me.
At night before going to bed, I close my eye and switch off the light, and
hear someone talk to me. This guy is from my mind. Possibly it's FRED.
I feel what's going on inside me not trying to
suppress it. I feel comfortable. At least, I feel I am honest to myself.
I know I can learn more, and share my feeling. You group is a good start.
Tribe Directory Page
Mon, 9 Jun 2003
I have developed a trading system that back tests pretty well against NASDAQ
for the last 5 years.
I don't want to go
into any more detail other than that it is trading on the day-to-day
volatility of the NASDAQ 100.
The only thing
that puzzles me is that it regularly tends to have pretty steep drawdowns,
that do not exactly correlate with the drawdowns in the index itself.
In your Market
Wizards interview you said that the "profitability of trading systems
seems to move in cycles". I can guarantee you that the system and the
index do not influence each other because the idea on which the system is
based is rather exotic. Do you have any other explanation for this
Also I have no clue how to incorporate some kind of money management into
the system to flatten out the drawdowns, because if I cut back during
drawdowns, they tend to last that much longer and the whole performance of
the system degrades rapidly.
Thanks for your time - I really appreciate your effort.
might have some feelings about losing - and/or being in control - that you
could take into TTP.
information can lead to drama.