Е Ed Seykota, 2003 ... Write for permission to reprint.

Ed Seykota's

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Tribe Directory - How to Join ... TTP - The Trading Tribe Process

Risk Management ...  Fractals & Borderlines


July 1-5, 2003



(Quotes from Ed in Red)


Sat, 5 Jul 2003


The path of least resistance

You might start with the feeling of being trapped in your own mind.

Thinking of ways to escape is part of the trap - experiencing the feeling of being trapped sets you free.


As I validate this feeling I have the following imagery:

I see scissors, blades, knifes cutting the image of a girl I happen to be involved in a co-dependent relationship.


As I validate this imagery I have an insight that any attempts to judge and control what is going on with her, in whatever degree and even with the best intentions, are doomed to failure.

Then I proceed to the feeling of being trapped and as I validate it I see myself holding her hand so as to prevent her from falling into an abyss. At some point I acknowledge I just cannot do it anymore and let her go.


Just afterwards I see myself trying to grasp something so as to hold myself from falling too. Then I decide not to resist anymore, I relinquish control and dive into a free fall.


I enjoy the feeling of falling freely very much. I feel great release of tension. Then I have this insight of relinquishing control, acknowledging my needs and feelings, following the path of least resistance. I feel freedom. Thanks.

For the time being, I feel the Process is not going automatic yet. Nevertheless, the more I practice with it, validating feelings, images and whatever Fred's messages as they come, with no judging or labeling, the flow keeps flowing more naturally.

Working with a good receiver can facilitate the process - particularly  with drama-motor feelings you judge to be bad or even unpleasant.

Sat, 5 Jul 2003


Am I nuts?

Mr. Seykota:

I read about you and possess much respect for your methodology. I respect your insights, as well.

I write this because I wish to wrestle control of this self-destructive trading monster inside of me.

I made lots of money in the bubble and then lost it. I stopped trading for a year. I stumbled onto Turtle Trader and used the system. Twice, within the space of a year, I managed to have two 150% months and then blew up again & lost it all with recklessness. I stopped trading again for another year.

Turtle Trader emphasizes methodology, money mgmt, and discipline.... and these aspects have stuck with me. I want to be better at trading.

Eight weeks ago, I suffered a massive heart attack, almost dying in the Emergency Room and my life perspective has changed.


The way I view life is totally different. My perspective used to be 6 months out to the future. Now, I have a much longer personal time perspective. By that I mean I am less grounded to this earth than before, particularly to material things. I am still recuperating and in a week a must have a defibrillator installed to monitor my heart beats. I am only 48 years old.

Further and more importantly, I recognize that one can & should do more to help others, if one has been blessed with money, talent, intelligence, athletic ability, or whatever. It is necessary to give something back.


The accumulation of money without a purpose is extremely wasteful. When I examine the circumstances of life I could have improved with the lost earnings instead of giving them away, I just feel terrible. I feel a need to correct (?) the past. Learn from it? Not repeat it? Give something back?

I am studying Japanese Candlestick charting and recognize a good methodology for trend spotting. The knowledge is exciting and I look forward to using it in conjunction with Turtle Trader methodologies.


As I said, I need to control this monster inside me.... and recognizing it coupled with this near death experience has me thinking less about the monetary result of the trading but more interested in finding the established trend.


Seems like the money is a by-product of the methodology and the discipline. Am I losing sense of reality or is TT looking like something I need to explore deeper?

Best Regards,

PS If you think I need therapy, I am doing that too. However, I am going to stop self-destructing in the markets.

TTP seems to help resolve various issues associating with feelings Fred wants to communicate to CM.




TTP can help you reframe


monsters into resources.


Clip: www.comicbookpros.com/



Fri, 04 Jul 2003

Will I do more harm than good?

Hello Ed,

After reading the excellent FAQs and answers here I have concluded that joining a TT would be a great help in overcoming that which prevents me from reaching my goals.
Unfortunately, there is no tribe in my area. While I have no particular objection to establishing one, I am not sure whether I am qualified to do so.

The text preceding your list of Trading Tribe member philosophy states:

"Trading Tribe members tend toward a common set of beliefs. Those who do not hold these kinds of beliefs either develop them or find themselves uncomfortable in the Trading Tribe Meetings and tend to drop out."

I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly that the beliefs listed are essential for successful trading but, if I am not following some of them........

e.g. "I Follow Trends - and don't try to figure out the markets"& "I let winners ride and I cut losses and I manage risk"

....then at some level I presume that I do not believe these principles - otherwise surely I would not find them so difficult to do.

I do not know why I am not doing what I should be doing - let alone how I can overcome these obstacles. If I don't even know where to begin to resolve my own issues, is there not a danger that I may do more harm than good to anyone else seeking help ?

Then - this caught my eye:


Ed is currently preparing a training program and materials, leading to certification of mastery and right to use the Trading Tribe name and logo. These materials are not available at this time.

This training program sounds as if it is designed to provide the roadmap and basics for anyone starting a tribe. Is that correct?

If so, would you advise waiting for its availability before starting a new tribe?

If I have misunderstood the purpose of the program, what is the purpose of the program, how do you envisage its use in Tribe creation and/or development and when will it be available ?

Watch FAQ for TTP Course Description.

Thu, 3 Jul 2003


Political Philosophy

The doctrine of fairness, pervasive in our political landscape, attempts to link guilt with success as a way to justify redistribution of assets.

Ironically, this doctrine seems to be preached the most by those who have the most shares.

Some measure assets in shares and dollars, others in power and influence.

Thu, 3 Jul 2003


Trading Tribe in Seattle Area

Dear Ed,

I live in a suburb north of Seattle and am interested in joining a trading tribe group.


I see from your web site that the nearest group is in Olympia, Washington. This is quite a distance from my home and I was wondering if a group could be started in the Seattle area.


I would like to talk to you about this at a time of your convenience.

See Tribe Directory.


You might try re-writing your sentence in SVO-p. Once the subject (the starter) appears, the group can form.

Thu, 03 Jul 2003


Wants to Join



Dear Sir,

i would like to be member of you community. I am mechanical trader and i love TA. Are you Ed Seykota? I am from Portugal,

Big hug.

See Tribe Directory.

Thu, 3 Jul 2003


Lone Wolf

In our land trading is unknown to the vast majority and regarded as rather immoral.


Should Chief Lone Wolf look for members or wait for them to apply to join the community? With some effort I guess I might get half a dozen all over the country.

FAQ does not tell people what they should do; see ground rules.

Wed, 2 Jul 2003


Hi Ed,

I am hoping you can provide some guidance with regard to slippage. I have put together what seems to be a successful
trading model and I need to account for slippage. I have a sufficient amount of data that has been tested but I have not
allowed for slippage.


I have the capability to apply slippage into my returns but I am somewhat lost as to how to decide on a number. I am trading very liquid products and I realize that all markets have their own unique tendencies, but I am hoping that you may be able to provide some guidance on this issue.


A conservative method to estimate slippage: take the average of the stop price and the worst possible price of the day.


Very few short-term models can survive that assumption.


Slippage Can Have a Profound Effect


on results


Clip: www.eleganthack.com/archives


Wed, 2 Jul 2003

Dear Mr Seykota,

I am writing from South Africa, a town called Pretoria. I am very interested in your Trading Tribe but I see here locally nothing of sort exists. Would is the possibility of starting a Tribe here and how would one go about to do so?

A bit about me. A am 25 years and has studied technical analysis from head to toe. I am currently busy doing a diploma in technicals through the Securities Institute in Australia (distance learning).

I have studied virtually every possible book about technical analysis, trading and psychology. I am trading full time for the last 3 years with mixed success and realize that all my "book knowledge" would not necessarily make me successful in trading, but I am sure the Trading Tribe would help in the finer points.

See Tribe Directory.

Tue, 1 Jul 2003



that's too much buddy.....didn't know you were a trekie....the first and the last are
spock-isms...maybe the second but i will have to confirm that. we'll that's one thing we have in common...i used to play golf also but when it turned out that my farmer tan on my arms was becoming permanent and my doc notice a couple of malignant melanomas on my arms, my bald spot and the back of my neck, i decided to give it up. maybe i should explore my feelings and try to understand why i didn't use sunscreen like mama told me to.

FAQ does not tell people what they should do; see ground rules.  That goes for Klingons and Vulcans too.



TTP Celebrates You


just the way you are.



Clip: www.reviewjournal.com/images/


Tue, 1 Jul 2003

Simple Entry Question

Dear Ed,

Please answer a simple entry question for me: Which entry order do I use for the following scenario:

EP closes at 7.5885, a signal to go long the next. My system dictates to enter ONLY if the open is above 7.48. EP opens at 7.40 so that I shall not enter. Which type of entry order can I use???

I don't see how to use a market/stop market or limit ??

My best regards,

PS: By the way: My historical stock data analysis suggests that - in general - the
greatest gains result from relatively short moving averages or break outs. In particular, when going short.

You might discuss various types of orders and their uses with your broker.


When you include an allowance for execution skid, results for high frequency systems deteriorate.


Be Careful of Skid

at high velocities and high frequencies.


Clip: www.highwaycode.gov.uk/index.shtml


Tue, 1 Jul 2003


I currently see last Thursday as the date on your site. Is that correct?


I have no corroborating evidence about your report on your vision.

Did you update your website any day last week? Was your website server disabled at all last week? I suppose I should assume you grew tired of your website, and remove it from my bookmarks. Your website was not current in "my view" and I am determining why.


And yes, why is important when diagnosing problems with machines. God help you if someone ever needs vital information from you and finds out a week later the structure of their sentences displeased you.

FAQ does not tell people what they should do; see ground rules.


FAQ publishes in response to demand.


You might have a look at what Fred is trying to tell you via your tendency to use "emergencies" to entrain people into co-dependency.



Thank Goodness,

the VTIV is on the way.


Vital Trading Information Vehicle



Tue, 1 Jul 2003


Checking In

You advised him to use index cards instead of charts. How does that work?

You can use index cards with charts; use a card to cover up the right side of the graph, and reveal it to yourself one day at a time, to simulate trading.


Trading Technology


Use with a pencil,

to record your theoretical track record.



Clip: www.diamond-sky.com/products/

Tue, 1 Jul 2003 08:44:33 -0500

Chicago Tribe


Is there a tribe in Chicago?

See Tribe Directory Page

Tue, 1 Jul 2003


Thanks for you reply. As always thought provoking. More comments... and questions...

As receiver, your mission is to encourage the flow of experience for the sender, from his Fred to his CM.

OK - we seem to be doing that OK. We have a "flow" and the descriptions are getting better - starting vague and getting more and more detailed. Some have "dissipated" - I take that to be a good sign.

You do not have to re-create a clone of the sender in yourself, although ongoing awareness of the sender's emotional state can help you stay on task.

OK. Point taken. I don't want to create a clone, but I do want to have awareness of their emotional state. They say "I'm frustrated" - what do I say? Your sites example says "My item is that I hate whipsaws and so I have trouble buying breakouts. I see the breakout and instead of acting, I just hem and haw and stand around and miss it."


This has both a context and an emotional content. I can "relate" to the context and "feel" something about it - maybe I feel excited when I see a breakout, or I may feel same as the sender. If I feel different I can say "I'm not finding the frustration...." and hopefully they say something else that starts a "flow" I focus on the emotions, but do I really need to know if we're talking about buying breakouts or whether they have problems choosing what flavor topping to put on their ice cream?


Do I need to know were talking about an investing issue, or could they just tell me "My problem is I'm frustrated"... and I get them to experience and describe the frustration?

If you continue to have a high need to feel what the sender feels, you might at some point, take that need, into TTP as an issue for yourself.

I don't actually "feel" any need at all. I am/was trying to do it cos its the way I understood the process. "Mirroring". Maybe that word is misleading. My dictionary says "polished surface coated with glass that reflects an image; looking glass; reflection".
document.writeln(dirStrEnd); It kind of implies "exact copy".


Does your use of the term mirroring (noun made into verb) mean I copy the EXTERNAL gestures and postures of the person so as to "reflect" them? Or does it mean I try and have some kind of experience similar to theirs so I can "empathize" with them and validate their feelings "Yes, I feel that too" or "I'm not feeling punishment"...

Receiving seems to be part science and part art. Receivers tend to become more skillful through practice and by observing other skillful receivers.

Unfortunatelty, our wigwam contains a very small tribe of two inexperienced "Tribees", and live several thousand kilometers apart. We are doing this by email and MSN. Not ideal I admit, but its what we have, so we are working round our problems with the tools we have. Where there's a will there's a way, as someone once said. Its taking three weeks to do what 40 mins on the hot seat would accomplish, but it does seem to be working - at least the hot seat talks of "dissipating" feelings as they describe.

Any suggestions you have for our situation would be useful. Vie read your comments about half a dozen members seeming to give the best results. We already know that, but we have two, and we live one on each side of the country. We either do nothing or we do something. I sympathize with the guy from Peru or Chile that wrote in. We have the same problem.

NOTE: If other members also live in far off places or cant form groups, maybe we could get an intentional e-community going...

One more point. If a TTP session consists of one person on the hotseat and another receiving ... what are the others doing? Just watching and listening? What is it about 6-12 people that makes it better than two? Do the others do anything, or is it just that "warm fuzzy" feeling of knowing you're part of a group that makes it "feel" better?

Why don't you video tape a session and put that on the site? A picture is worth a thousand words ... so a video must be like a million... I'm sure someone wants to be famous from hemming and hawing! You could do it with silhouettes or something if they're embarrassed...

Receiving, in the TTP sense, seems to lie outside the scope of modern cultural interactions.

What's the point of this comment? Its cute but its not helpful.

People who study receiving may find it a bit awkward at first. Later they may find it strangely familiar and natural. Eventually they may notice that people do not really receive each other very much in "normal" life.

Very true.... People don't even read what other people write sometimes .... or answer the questions asked... they often have their own agendas.... no wonder Soap Operas are so popular here in Brazil.... watching other peoples dramas...

The cultural lack of opportunities for sending and receiving feelings seems consistent with the existence of societal dramas.

How does this help answer my questions?

When Fred communicates a feeling, it releases. There may also be an awareness of new insight, such as an aha.

State the obvious... :-) I guess there also may not ... :-) Sometimes I get the impression there's a very sophisticated piece of neurally networked linguistic software answering these emails. However, the fact that there was a weeks gap might imply a human on holiday or sick or bored or busy or something... or a virus ... :-) Just kidding!

As a receiver, you do not have to pry into the details of your sender's drama or even into the feelings he experiences during TTP.

So do I even need to be there? What am I doing? What's the difference between "prying" and "receiving"? Prying seems to be a "loaded" word dependent on who's judging...

TTP can, in this way be quite subtle, confidential and private, even in group setting.

Although I understand all the words, I don't have a clue what that actually means... could you elaborate? You mean the other members don't know what's going on?

Senders generally emote during the process and may signal their condition with facial expressions, body postures and gestures.

This we don't have in email ... just words used ... BIG limitation ... any suggestions to keep on track appreciated as usual. Our "mission" is currently a bit lost in the jungle ... our compass is giving conflicting directions...

A skillful receiver can pick up on these cues enough to stay on mission.

"Stay on mission" = focus on the feeling, right? Just keep the person describing the physical symptoms of their "issue"? Is this it? I read in a reply this week you said the "story" was not needed, and that you underlined emotions. In the example you give, the sender talks about hemming and hawing on breakouts, is this also "story"?

Could you perhaps put another example on the process page that has NO story in it at all? I'm still a bit confused as to what IS needed and what isn't. On one hand I understand that all that is important is validating and describing (expressing?) feelings, but is my role as a receiver just to encourage the person to produce the most graphically perfect description of their feeling? Rather like this...

- I feel a pressure
- Where?
- In my chest
- Where in your chest?
- Going up the middle
- So its moving?
- No. Its fixed
- Temperature?
- I feel hot. Its kind of vibrating.
- Describe that
- Not actually pressure... ribbons... several ribbons. Going into my throat.
- Okay, what else?
- My mouth is dry
- Your mouth is dry...
- And I can feel tension in my muscles
- Which muscles?
- Neck. Chest. Shoulders.
- etc etc ad infinitum or until possible aha and release of tension?

Is this receiving?

Thanks! :-)

Receiving intends to encourage emotional communication between Fred and CM.  TTP tends to be more effective at close range.




Embracing the Process


Some things work better close up.


Clip: www.bramwellcrafts.co.uk/