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from Ed in Red)
Sat, 30 Apr 2005
I am mailing a copy of the one-page musical score but without lyrics. I have
a difficult time expressing my emotions & feel that music does it best
for me. It doesn't have a title and the song is open for interpretation.
Unfortunately, I am unable to commit to consistent [Tribe] attendance. I
honestly don't have anything to say.
Thank you, again, for all your help.
might consider writing some lyrics about (1) not having anything to say and
(2) being unable to commit.
you have nothing to say
no commitments to keep
might not need to get ahead.
Sat, 30 Apr 2005
Want to Start a
Dear Sir Ed Seykota,
I am deeply influenced by your work in the trading in stock markets i am
starting trading as a full time career for my livelihood.
i want to join your community and want to participate in the FAQ's. I have
some interesting question in my mind which you will find interesting to
answer to .
I my area there is no community so I want to start one , kindly add my
details in the procedure and allow me to start a community.
my details are ... [Name] [Email] [Phone].
Waiting for your confirmation.
start a Tribe, follow the directions on the Directory Page, above, including
identifying your city.
Fri, 29 Apr 2005
RE: 4.18 FAQ - The
I love it.
Then I realize the following: Hint: substitute “system” for “pocket”
Fri, 29 Apr 2005
Dear Mr. Seykota:
I have found a number of similarities between the practice of Japanese Budo
and successful trading.
Being an advanced
practitioner of Karate-Do, some of your insights have been very well
understood and appreciated. Before I address those similarities let me
explain the similarities between Budo and Zen practice.
The objective of both is non-existent. That is to say, we practice because
we love to practice, because it allows us to get rid of our
"selves". This process of "getting rid" takes many
phases. It commences with acknowledgment that we are not perfect, that we
need to work on our "selves" and that we can improve. After a
while (perhaps one year) you begin to understand (under + stand) something
quite remarkable, that we are made of body, mind and spirit. Intensive
practice of Budo (or Zen) allows one to bypass the mind.
The Japanese have,
traditionally named this process in various ways, each with a series of
unique ideograms (kanji) - "mushin", meaning empty mind, "zanshin",
meaning ready mind, "fudoshin" meaning calm mind, etc.
The mind is a gate, a set of doors. It is totally devoid of intelligence.
It is quite stupid and archaic. Krishnamurti talked about this during the
last 10 years of his life. It takes an enormous amount of skill,
intelligence and work to open those doors.
It is very
important to loose resistance, to let go, not to ask anything back, to
To flow with the river (again, there are plenty of analogies in Japanese
Zen) is to be. And to be is to be with your "self", the
"river", the world. This is WA (harmony). In karate we learn to
"fight" by sensing breathing. You can attack before, after or
whilst your opponent breathes in - wa no sen, sen-no-sen, etc.
To make this a bit shorter - any methodology to trade which involves
"prediction", "natural laws", "being right",
etc, etc, is bound to fail, because you can NOT predict, we do NOT know
natural laws and we are mostly WRONG. These are dramas of the mind.
Learn to live with your "self". Learn what exactly is meant with
your "self". Practice Budo and Zen.
Trading is as much an art form as Budo. Develop a technique based on the
insights you obtain from watching your mind. There is no reality, only
representations of it. Choose the most beneficial representation and
continue on sensing your breathing, your body.
I practice 6 hours karate a week, am 45. When I feel sort of sick I go and
practice. At the end of the training I'm fresh. After I sit for half an hour
I'm strong. The body is strong, the mind is at rest and I was able to
might consider taking your feelings of wanting to get rid of your mind to
your Tribe as an entry point.
Rid of your Head
good use for it.
Thu, 28 Apr 2005
Back a few months you posted a new tribe in Sarasota County, Florida ...
[one member] ... expected the Tribe to be more of a group psychotherapy talk
session and was surprised to find it so non-verbal. To each, his own path.
I remain committed to moving ahead with ... the Sarasota Tribe, so ... (if
you would) please re-instate said tribe as a start-up, one member (myself).
Thu, 28 Apr 2005
/ Trading Money
hope all is well. I have a question: I create a snapshot with my tribe. Part
of my snapshot is a $1,000,000 trading account. When I revisit my snapshot
to see what feelings come up, I tend to trade for money a while afterwards.
signals "to make money faster" in order to get to my snapshot
faster, I panic over losses feeling I am getting further away from my
I forget about
my snapshot and I follow my system again. How can I clarify my intention
to make a certain amount trading, without being attached to the snapshot?
do not know the process you use in your Tribe to create and implement
as we use them in the TTP Workshop:
see Your Own Face
then use TTP to locate and dissolve whatever is standing between us and our
then build a support teams from our Tribes to follow our progress and assist
us in experiencing our feelings as they arise.
context, around the snapshot, is essential in executing the TTP Snapshot
this context, your snapshot might just become part of your drama.
pursuing your snapshot.
TTP Snapshot Process
this as an opportunity
you to experience your panic
learn to stay the course
you and your snapshot.
Thu, 28 Apr 2005
You mentioned in your reply:
might take your feelings
of wanting to be right, and to get a clever bargain, to a Tribe Meeting.”
Thu, 21 Apr 2005
I mentioned previously: “I think I am wrong.” At the bottom of my email
because I am not trying to proof my self right or wrong (No bias), in my
research I try to have an objectively point of view to seek new insight that
might be missed out because trend followers were successful and didn’t see
Success of trend
followers doesn’t mean I shouldn’t even discuss and try to improve their
methods and I am not trying to reinvent the wheel, what I am doing is
looking for logical possibilities and this process involves being wrong many
times until I reach to a conclusion or not at all but I will for sure leave
behind an open discussion which one day someone might or might not benefit
I will need to learn math to understand what is behind the Kelly formula for
example or lose a fortune but its part of the game, and which I know many
people will spend their life happily without having to engage in a risky
objective which keep evolving and changing as you gain new insight like
trying to bring logic into the idea of trend following and risking my own
capital and time to implement it or trying an idea behind a restaurant which
serves food according to the geographic location because it seems right.
Why do you analyze me? It’s never about me; it’s the logic behind the
idea be it wrong or right.
You mentioned in your reply:
Making up meanings and justifying them sounds like fundamental analysis.”
Wed, 20 Apr 2005
Does the current price have any relationship with the previous high or low
against a time frame? Does historical price make profits? Logically:
Historical price is non-profitable unless you were engaged in trading while
it was present and after that it is plain history and we can only learn from
the possibilities of outcomes if we did or didn’t trade it with a system.
When I emailed you I was seeking your opinion because you are a successful
trader, I didn’t want to email the trading tribe but it was the only way
to reach you. The trading tribe applies a filter to the vocabulary that I
does not answer "why" questions or tell people what they
"should" do. See Ground Rules.”
I never forced
anyone to do anything, I presented my opinion and reason to why “should”
anyone accept it due to what I consider logic, if they don’t they will
need to correct me, if I am corrected I would have benefited and I always
accept being wrong as long as I get to an understanding of why I am wrong.
Please do not publish my emails to the trading tribe.
I ask for your
opinion and I want a discussion if possible not only commentary. If not or
if you want to charge me for it then I have no budget for that.
No personal grudge Ed, still you are the better than much other people who
didn’t dedicate any effort for a reason but try to accept some
non-acceptable ideas for they might be something relative to your success as
long as they are objective.
publish letters that I feel are of value to readers.
might consider taking your feelings of struggle and irritation to your Tribe
as an entry point.
an essential characteristic
Thu, 28 Apr 2005
... This is about
fascinating changes in my life since I went through the snapshot exercise at
the [City] tribe meeting three weeks ago.
In my snapshot I am looking at my completed software application, which
addresses a specific need of various enterprises; my snapshot also includes
an office with flowing water where the office itself is an extension to my
... the snapshot-process for me is a great blessing - on that day while I
was driving to the tribe-meeting I was thinking of asking ... about
Hard-Ball process and the snapshot went beyond that. To me the realization
came in multiple waves - not as a single AHA right after the snapshot
At the end of the meeting, [our Chief] made me commit to the tribe that I
will call him next day and confirm that I have taken first steps towards
building my software application. It took some effort, but, by the end of
the next day I have started my development. From that point on, it was an
interesting journey for me - I sat all day in the library writing my plans
for the application and future direction of the business.
What is remarkable is how much I have progressed in the three weeks since
the snapshot-meeting - that progress is far ahead of what I thought and
worked through in the last three-years. It is as if I have been waiting for
this event to take place! I have built a basic-prototype already and
demonstrated it to one of my customers to get them interested so they will
pay some of my development costs - this went through quite well and I am
working on the next steps. I also reached out to my business acquaintances
to get me business-leads - getting out there and talking to my customers is
my goal. My goal is to successfully implement my application at 10 Customer
Sites within the next one year.
I also noticed a significant change in the way I look at people and issues.
Granted: there can be any number of problems as I work through getting my
software developed and sold, but, I have no doubt that I will be able to
work out solutions as I go along. That I am thinking like this is a surprise
To me: my tribe has become an extension of the family. It is a little
like the loyalty that gets developed among the soldiers fighting together,
like in a brother-hood - sort of like in a "tribe"!
I have taken hot-seat only 2-3 times so far - and, it brought back memories
from my child-hood that I thought I erased a long time ago. There may still
be a skeleton or two - but, that doesn't seem to bother me very much! Doing
Yoga on a regular basis has dramatically changed my outlook towards life in
general; it sharpened my thinking and removed the edge from the past
negative experiences. Getting on hot-seat and practicing yoga seems to be
the right combination.
I think saying a simple "thank you" to [you and to my local Chief]
does not do justice. It is an enriching and rewarding experience - and, one
that I am still going through. The last six months since we met at the
work-shop have been an interesting ride.
Ed, to me the most
important statement is "95% of everything is b---s---" - I would
not have taken this coming from someone else! It prodded and challenged me
into critical thinking about what I want to do. I am writing that statement
on top of every page of notes I am making on my business plan - not to be
negative about what everything else is, but, to ensure that neither I nor
anything I do/say will fall into that 95%.
I even thought of
putting it on my business-card! :-) Anyways, since that can be a little too
strong - I am thinking of reverse "Only 5% of anything is
significant". Hope you are okay with that - me taking a quote of yours
to put on my business-card (and, marketing material in future).
I will keep you and the tribe posted - this is not the last of the trenches
with the tribe. The journey is fun - and, I have a lot of ideas about the
group of applications I want to build. You will hear from me again.
I have also started working on trend-following system ... in that context, I
am fascinated by the continuous transmutation that happens in nature and
cannot help but notice that trends are a natural occurrence in life. I
cannot believe that there is an industry built up around valuation and
prediction of so called asset-pricing! My goal is to complete my first phase
of trend-following system ... by May 31, 2005.
And, before I finish: "THANK YOU". It always seemed like I have
known the two of you for a long time. So, I think THANK YOU sounds too
formal. Thank you very much. May you spread the wisdom of thought everywhere
you go. With lots of affection,
Wed, 27 Apr 2005
... right to the point, I observe that life, everything and I myself are
subject to trends, just like prices. Ups and downs, cycles of volatility
expansion and contraction, growth and decline, war and peace.
So is the history
of mankind, so is my history. Yet, in this search for meaning I find none. I
just keep living, mostly with no real or strong sense of purpose or
direction. I find even this questioning nonsense, and I feel more
pleasure in drinking one or two glasses of pure wine, as I let emotions flow
in and out, and turn off, slightly, the censorship of reason. Then I feel
might consider taking the feeling of no purpose to your Tribe as an entry
is Like a Pencil
your own point.
Wed, 27 Apr 2005
On The Cutting
When my manager said to me, "Unfortunately, you will no longer be in
our plan," my life has turned totally upside-down. I've had great joy
in my work because it allows me to backtest various trade ideas.
For example, when
I do the assignment you give (S&P moving average) in the FAQ I feel a
tremendous amount of energy. I feel proud and focused.
But when I hear the news that I'm let go, I try to act like I'm OK, when
deep down I'm fearful, scared, frightened, uncertain. What can I do now? How
can I face the harsh reality?
I have chest pain and just discomfort everywhere in my body. I feel like I
want to pass out. My head is heavy. I want to cry but couldn't fully. I feel
tremendous amount of pressure that I can barely handle.
I'm literally dying for TTP. I feel like TTP is the only thing that can help
me. I've lost all senses of direction and focus, and I'm just desperate for
TTP to help untie those k-nots that create such a huge drama in me. It feels
so horrible that it feels I want to die.
Finally, it's the tribe meeting day. I wait on the subway platform very
nervously. It's been 10 minutes without a train. If I don't get there in
time, or if I don't get on the hot seat tonight, I can't even imagine the
consequence. I think I will explode. I will die. (Hmmm, interesting the
thinking only makes sense in future tense) As the train goes ever so
slowly, I get more and more uneasy. The feelings are building up.
Fortunately I get to the meeting on time. With tons of emotions and a super
strong intention I get my way to the hot seat. I cry out loud.
Tears flooding, mucus blocking the nose, just crying out loud. Many of the
forms come out. I am rolling on the floor, kneeling, curling my body with my
head touching the floor, screaming, crying, cursing, arms stretching for
help, kicking myself. The receivers encourage me to feel my feelings. I feel
fearful. I feel I have no direction and I don't know where to go.
There are two things I notice during the process. I keep thinking and trying
to figure out a solution, and I am frustrated at that, because I know they
are prohibiting me from fully experience the true feeling.
At other times when I am feeling terrible and every time the receivers
says, "You may actually like this feeling," I just leash out a
loud "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! (I don't like it)" I don't want to feel
like this. I hate feeling this very uncomfortable feeling.
It reminds me about how you've reflected to me, "I don't like feeling
uncomfortable. When I feel uncomfortable I like to blame it on others."
Well, this time I am not really blaming anyone but myself. I hate myself for
getting into the situation I'm in.
I feel very tired after all the emotional rides. I cry enough that I stop,
but I still feel very uncomfortable. No posture feels right. I feel
frustrated about the lack of resolution, about my insistence on an answer. I
hold two tight fists, and hold them stronger and stronger until my head
starts vibrating. As I keep on intensifying and holding the fists tighter
and tighter, that feeling suddenly disappears. Hmmm, strange.
Finally, I have my left hand covering part of my face, and I am so
frustrated that I press the finger nails into the skin to inflict some kind
of pain. As I intensify that pain, suddenly I have a flashback.
It is the time when I am in my senior year of high school as I first come to
America, my host-mother gives me until the end of the month to move out
because she gets too fed up with my habits (staying up late at night for
I felt rejected,
unwanted, and desperate as if there is no place in the world for me to stay.
I felt fearful about the uncertainty. What can I do? One night, I took a
cutter into the bathroom and tried to make a scar on my face!
Fortunately, when it started to hurt, I stopped. Gosh, those are the exact
same feelings I'm going through right there on the hot seat!! The
rejections, unwanted feelings from my manager and the fear about the
uncertainty. And I get the flashback right when I press the nails to the
Back then, I ended up moving to live with my French teacher and her family,
and had the greatest time in my life that totally changed me to be a better
them I start weeping on the hot seat. It's the tear of appreciation (to
them) and also the tear of release (of what I've gone through back then) So
while still apprehensive about my situation and worry about what the
ever-evolving now-moment is going to bring, I feel a lot better after my TTP
session. TTP really saves me as I'm about to break down. Thanks Ed!!
might consider taking the feeling of wanting someone to save you to your
Tribe as an entry point.
Asking for Help
solving a drama
Sun, 17 Apr 2005
Intentions = Results
Now seems like the right time to share with you my TT and trading
experiences since we communicated last summer, if you are still interested
in hearing them.
You may or may not recall that after leaving Incline Village at the end of
2002 I went to work for a company in Manhattan ...
After working as an assistant for over a year I began to trade a stock
market account for them in April 2004. Over a year has passed since then and
I have failed to make any money. I failed to catch any long term trends in
the stock market, especially the oil stocks uptrend that began last year.
Before I left Incline Village at the end of 2002 you told me that I needed
more experience. More than two years have passed and I see now that you were
Until recently I have had very little experience in feeling my feelings.
Going to Trading Tribe and regularly sitting in the Hot Seat for a year has
helped me to see that.
... Thank you for
reviving TTP and giving me the opportunity to finally experience it.
These past 18 months have been very frustrating and difficult for me, yet
also enlightening. The feelings that I often find myself working on in TT
meetings are the feeling of fear and the feeling of failure.
Now, I am afraid
that my time with [Firm] may be coming to an end. Since I began trading in
April 2004 my result has been negative, and we know that results equal
intentions. This is where my path has taken me so far.
might consider asking your Tribe to assist you in coming to enjoy your
feelings of fear and failure.
of Fear and Failure