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September 11-20, 2004

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(Quotes from Ed in Red)


Mon, 20 Sep 2004


Glossary Corrections

Here are a few things about Glossary you might consider:

+ I notice you have two similar entries in the glossary for the Under Fred network. One is in the Essential, section and the other in the Elaborative. You might want to consolidate them:

Under-Fred Network: Fred controls subtle interpersonal communications via emotions, such as facial expressions and body postures. He uses the emotional channel to enroll others in fulfilling our intentions. When Fred's intention is to pump feelings, and when CM does not listen, Fred may enroll others in situational drama.


Under Fred – the network of all Freds. Under Fred is the communication system we use to enroll each other in drama and in right livelihood. Someone might use subconscious body posture to announce a desire to become a victim in a drama, or to realize a grand enterprise. Under Fred communicates intentions directly, even without
any currently measurable means. See Magic.

I admit I may have missed the distinction between the two items.

+ The following link, included in the K-not definition does not work:


This link works:


Either spelling is correct, but the browser doesn't know that. Neither does my Mac - which asserts 'judgement' is misspelt.

+ I suggest the "Go For It" item might be enclosed in quotation marks - to indicate this item is something the tribe might -say- to encourage the sender to locate and experience forms. Further, a definition for the word "Encouragement" might provide a list of encouraging but not distracting phrases useful for receivers, such as "yes", "go for it", "keep doing that", "that's it" &c.

I hope this helps.

Thank you for reading carefully and for reporting your findings to FAQ.  The Glossary now stands with your corrections.




A Good Sleuth

gets the facts


Sleuth-Bloggers like "Buckhead" quickly analyze the CBS documents and prove they are bogus. 


CBS eventually replies: "We were mislead ... We should not have used them."


Reporters might improve the clarity of their reporting and thinking by implementing SVO-p. (See Glossary).  Past tense and passive voice enable concealment and obfuscation.





Clip: http://www.isd77.k12.mn.us/




Mon, 20 Sep 2004



I have been so afraid to feel fear, it has ruled my life.

I did not know this until a sleepless night in which I told myself to feel what ever feelings arose.

In a few minutes, I'm curled up in a ball, being afraid of everything, being afraid of not know why I'm afraid.

I remember a time as a young teen, working on a farm with friends.

We're on a break and playing on top of the hay bails which are stacked inside of the barn, only a few feet from the peak. Bill starts to slip down between the hay bails and the wall joists, starts calling for help.

Jon is cool and collected. I panic and don't know what to do. I'm afraid and feeling claustrophobic with the ceiling so close to me.

Jon is helping Bill, while I am curled up in a ball, crying, terrified of what might happen in the very near future.

Bill is Ok and up on top of the hay now. Little is said on our way down to the ground and we continue our work day with subdued conversation.

Not much more is said about the incident.

I feel childish. I feel guilty. I don't like being afraid.

It isn't until I'm lying in bed that I realize that Bill was never in any real danger, and fear was the thing I was most afraid of that day.

I realized that this incident, and my being afraid of fear itself, have had a powerful influence in my life. Now that I realize this, now that I realize there is an accessible source of influence, I feel free, I feel hope.

I am willing to explore my fear of fear, and it seems to dissipate.

I see more opportunities now that my fear of fear dissipates.

As my fear of being fearful dissipates, the original fear gradually subsides as well.

There always some fear when a new opportunity presents itself, and that
is OK.

It is ok to feal some fear, and act on it as a chance to expand and grow.

I am no longer looking for the easy way, or comfortable way to succeed.

I see opportunities in trading, as well as in life, which have always been in front of my face, but haven't seen.

In many instances, fear = opportunity.

I remember a quote "If it isn't a little bit scary, it isn't a big enough game."

Maybe if FDR had been a TTP member...

The only thing we have to fear, is being afraid to feel, fear itself.

Thank you for your site, and inspiring me to grow.

Your lively reaction to Bill's fall may indicate a prior incident and deeper k-nots of feelings.


You might take your fear feelings to a Tribe meeting.



Down in the Hay


might mean different things

to different people.


Be sure someone wants rescuing

before imposing a bale-out.


Clip: http://www.rhondaburchmore.com/



Mon, 20 Sep 2004


Re: Receivers off the hook (Sep 16, 2004)

Dear Ed,

Thanks for the response. To align the receivers and myself, can you please elaborate more? I think our group is under the impression that, the sender presents his dream to the Tribe, and the receivers give a pass/no-pass based on the clarity of the intention of the sender, such that we can then proceed to TTP/hardball and feel what is standing between us and the dream.


So this is a process where the receivers not only encourage me (the sender) to send/present my dream, but also need to analyze it and reflect back to me if the dream is ambiguous. Is it not the proper way?

For the last two weeks we have been doing that, going through a lot of clarifications and even though I find a lot of feelings and emotions (e.g. the determined and ruthless beast) via the Process, what I get from that seems too "logical" (perhaps even story telling) to the receivers.

Many thanks.

The Hardball Process is a method for attaining a goal - by dissolving barriers between you and your goal.


If you have no goal, you can set up "to have a goal" or "to experience my feelings" as an interim goal.


In either event, the receivers are to receive, not lead or guide or require a "20 year plan," as in your previous example.



A Good Receiver


focuses on the job at hand.


Clip: http://www.the-daily-record.com/


Sun, 19 Sep 2004


Sex, Drugs, & TTP

Hi Ed,

I sometimes use sex, food, alcohol, and other substances to avoid experiencing certain feelings.


Do you ever practice TTP and / or breath work after a period of fasting and abstinence?


If so, what differences do you notice in the experience?

When you convert your feelings from adversaries to allies, you lose your desire to avoid your feelings.


Abstinence, then, becomes just another sexual preference.


You might consider taking your desire to fast and abstain into the process.



Yet Another Cool Way

to Combine Sex and Food


Note: the phrase "will work"

refers to the non-existing future

and indicates weak intention.


Successful marketing requires

getting yourself and your client

into the moment of now.


Clip: http://pro2004.org/images/people/


Sun, 19 Sep 2004


Joining a Tribe

Dear Mr. Seykota,

I attended a seminar of yours in 1991 in Larkspur California with about 15 or 20 other people ...  In any event, I ended up moving to Chicago, and have been trading on the floor for the past 10 years.


I am interested in moving away from the floor, because the scalping edges have been eliminated with low volatility and computerized trades.

I'd appreciate it if you could put me in contact with a group here in the mid-west. Or possibly could I join your tribe. I feel I need the support of a group as I make the transition to the screen.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

See Tribe Directory for instructions for joining and / or starting a Tribe.

Sat, 18 Sep 2004


Debating and Connecting

Hi Ed,

Ed Says: "Debating with someone rarely changes their attitude; debating is just drama in which two senders refuse to receive for each other."

Carl Rogers ("Becoming a Person") recommends one way around this drama. In a debate you have the up-front rule that you must articulate the other person's
previous statement to their liking before you can say anything about your own view on the subject.


This sounds pretty artificial and trivial, but it is  much harder to execute than it sounds. It can work miracles in changing attitudes where the participants hold strong, emotionally charged opposing

When people agree to fully receive each other before sending, you don't really have a debate. You have something closer to TTP.


Rogers' techniques include subtle forms of assuming a solution and then transferring the assumption to clients.



Carl Rogers

(1902 - 1987)


Invents Client-Centered Therapy


Clip: http://www.ship.edu/


Fri, 17 Sep 2004


November Workshop

I am interested in your workshop, but am not sure if it is appropriate for me. I would appreciate the chance to discuss it with someone.

I am the team leader of ... successfully engineered a turnaround in this fund since 1998, I am now at stage in life of looking for the next challenge.

I have been a futures trader in my personal account since 1977, and have been successful for the last several years, I am past the point of grappling with the demons of following ones system and losing confidence in the methodology.

My interest in the seminar is twofold:

1. a desire to refine my "trend capturing" methodology which is different than the fundamental approach used in the mutual fund.

2. Gaining insight on the issue of whether it is better to work alone, or in a group. If the answer is a group, how best to go about it.

So, my questions are these:

Would I be a good person to have at the seminar?

Would the seminar be helpful in regard to my interests?

What other types of people will be in attendance?

I can be reached at xxx-xxxx-xxxxx weekdays. If you get voice mail, I will call you right back. Thanks.

The Workshop has no marketing team and no one to call you.


The Workshop simply receives; it welcomes people who are ready to, say, explore feelings about knowing what is appropriate .



Thu, 16 Sep 2004


Wants Exact Definition

I did not find your response very thorough. To rephrase my first question.

As I said before, I have read through the website and don't understand the basic idea of TTP.

-Is trading "instruments" / trading stocks / Investing the underlying purpose of TTP, or is not that much to do with this at all?

-What is the main theme/definition of TTP?

I already stated what I thought it looked like it was, but I want to know exactly what it is.

To get a the basic idea of TTP, you might try exploring your feelings of wanting an exact definition.



In TTP, a demand for information


may lead to insight

that you like to be demanding.


Clip: http://yosemite-sam.net/


Thu, 16 Sep 2004


Receivers Off the Hook

Dear Ed,

I greatly appreciate your advice, as always. I feel I am on to something very important and I'm very close to it, but not quite there yet, so your insight here may push me over it.

For the last two weeks I have been working with my tribe on refining my dream. When I first did my dream about a year ago or so, my snapshot was one where I hold four roles (speculator, student, author, philanthropist), and the theme is to accumulate wealth and knowledge and then giving them away. The feeling is rewarding, fulfilling and heart-warming.

Recently, as I review old FAQ's, I see one where you say the best thing we could do to contribute is to find something we really like, and do it really well. It really resonates with me and opens a whole new world. All of a sudden, I feel that the best way I can give is by being best at myself, by committing to doing things I like to do. And that becomes my dream - the dream of spending EVERY MOMENT OF NOW doing things I really like, and do them really well. The natural by-product is right livelihood.

When I present it to my tribe, I greatly appreciate my receivers reflecting their thoughts back to me. Some have difficulty giving me a pass because it sounds vague to them. Can that even be a dream, because it's like everyone wants to do things they like anyway? Can that be a dream because it is so vague that there may be a lot of potential conflict? They want me to clarify what is the thing that I want to do, and I give some examples, but they are not definitive (like a must-do). Then I may have gone too far and some say I am too specific, but we all get the feeling that it is something along the line of going with the flow every moment. (The next day on the train to work, I think of Forrest Gump - who does thing so naturally, and just by being himself and doing things he does best (running, ping-pong, shrimp-boat captain, even in Vietnam), he serves a lot of people and changes their lives. Surprisingly Gump fits the closest to my dream.)

My receivers ask for a snapshot to give them a clearer picture. I envision a snapshot when I know I am about to die, and I look back and have a fulfilling and rewarding feeling that I have spent my life the way I like it, and there is nothing that I want to change. I live my damnedest.

The receivers do not pass me because it is too reflective. They want me to try 20 years out instead of the end of my life. So I do that, living through a day 20 years from now. Still, I do not get a pass, perhaps because I spend too much of my focus on consciously explaining to them and justifying my reasoning.

Finally, we decide to go to TTP to find out what stands between me and fully experiencing my dream. I first feel frustration and aimlessly moving my arms and legs. Eventually it gets to the same old feeling which I have experienced on previous hot seat sessions - breathing hard and rapidly to the point where I choke. And this time I am roaring like a beast. I am like an animal fighting, not backing down, and determined. I keep roaring and crying out loud despite my throat turns sore; I breathe hard and deep and fast to the point I feel like puking, and then I come right back and go through that experience again. I have this feeling in past hot seat sessions as well, as I long for the feeling of a determined and committed warrior who knifes through anything that stands in his way. Perhaps I long for this overcoming power feeling that I engineer this breathing/puking experience, and in a way I am saying to myself, whatever beating I am taking now, I am not backing down and I will overcome it.

As I push the puking feeling further with the encouragement from my receivers, I finally "overcome" it by spitting out some disgusting phlegm (thanks God I have the Kleenex before I actually spit it out). The next stage is when I gather my strength and stand up, and I forcefully move my hands and strongly release my fists, like releasing some invisible magic force. I feel like giving. I feel even though I am giving away all these power, I actually still have a lot inside of me. It feels good.

The process is very powerful and I feel great about it. After experiencing these I finally step out. These are great feelings I want to feel, especially the feeling of a determined beast roaring past obstacles, fighting against heaven. Perhaps it is related to ... my c-section birth and not going through the struggle of birth, and also related to my feeling of not wanting to confront. There is actually this shadow (beast) side of me that I am suppressing, when I am quiet, shy and gentle most of the time. And now after all the struggle, I have the power that is overflowing and I want to give out to others, metaphorically speaking. And despite my giving, I still have more inside.

I explain all these to the tribe members. And here's where we are stuck. All agree that I have gone through a lot of feelings, and some congratulate me on the work I've done. However, some remain unconvinced. They feel that it sounds too "logical", as if I am explaining it. They feel that it may be CM who is scripting the beast fighting part, and that I am trying to overcome the feeling (like choking to the point where I almost puke) instead of accepting it as I repeatedly use the word "overcome", "fight" and "conquer."

So even though what I have experienced "makes sense" to me, I respect my receivers' observations and wonder if it indeed "makes too much sense?"  My receivers think that it may be another dramatic act (another judge) that Fred engineers so that I don't get to the true underlying feeling. Some have made suggestions that maybe I can feel the polarity of the "beast" side and my "gentle" side at the same time.

I really want to get to the root of it and find my right livelihood. (Another favorite quote from FAQ: Right livelihood means commitment to a course of action that you and your Tribe refine with TTP) I have a recurring issue with not committing and not taking it to the fullest. In addition to the last two weeks of work with my tribe, I have previously tried feeling total un-committing on the hot seat. I feel that I have gone through a lot and probably very close to it, but just not quite there yet. I don't want to give up now. I want to take it to completion for once. Can you please share your insight and help? Many, many thanks!!!!

In TTP, the receivers encourage you to send whatever you are sending.


Your "receivers" seem to have an agenda for you to clarify your intentions and make 20 year plans.


You might consider re-aligning your receivers on receiving, and then exploring your feelings about wanting to go to completion.




When the Receiver

is Off the Hook


The sender can't get through.


Clip: http://s88103551.onlinehome.us/




Wed, 15 Sep 2004


Risk Management Article

Permission to Re-Print


I kindly request your authorization to reprint your Risk Management article in my upcoming website.

Naturally, I shall reference the source of the article with a link to your website if you wish.

Thank you for you interest in Risk Management and for asking for permission to reprint. See Ground rules for reprinting policy.


Anyone may assemble and conduct meetings to discuss, teach and use anything on the Trading Tribe Site - as long as it is (1) not-for-profit, (2) absolutely free to participants, (3) at the risk of the presenters and participants. See Ground Rules.


You may reprint the article if (1) your site is non-commercial and (2) you credit www.tradingtribe.com and note the material is (c) Ed Seykota and further reprinting is with my permission only. 

If your site is commercial, you may mention the article and post a URL to www.tradingtribe.com


If your site is commercial and you want to copy and re-print the article, write me about licensing the article. 

Wed, 15 Sep 2004

TTP - Messy

Hi Ed,

I write about my hot seat experience on 8-19-04 at IV-TT.  I call it messy.

I experience three feelings when a ‘mess’ is created. The first feeling is a slimy, wet feeling in my hands and feet. I want to shake it off, and I do. The second feeling is a crunching, hot feeling, in my arms and legs. I curl up into a ball and look away from the mess. The third feeling is a focused look, my brow is crunched in, my hands are up in a ready position, and I have a warm, tight feeling in my jaw.

I label these feelings as:

1. “What a &%@*# mess!”

2. “I don’t want to do it (deal with it)”

3. “Do it!”

I experience all three feelings, separately, enjoying each feeling. Then I merge two feelings, enjoying the feeling. Then I merge all three feelings at the same time, enjoying the feeling. I let my body take the form it wants to take. I end in a standing position, one leg slightly off the ground, and hands in front of me. I focus in the now.

After this process, TT members ask me, “How do you feel about a mess?” I have a warm buzzing feeling in my chest, I say. I like this feeling. TT members ask me, “How do you feel about ‘I don’t want to do it’?” I have a warm buzzing feeling in my chest, I say. I like the feeling. Finally, TT members ask me, “How do you feel about ‘do it’?” I have a warm buzzing feeling in my chest, I say. I like the feeling.

I know I have a different feelings surrounding a mess, and I wonder how I feel the next time I encounter one.

I realize the potential of this process on 8-23-04:

It is Monday morning, my son’s nanny is late, she leaves her car keys at home, and is in need of a ride from the train station to my house. (What a mess.) I am busy working and I do not want to deal with this, (second feeling). After a few minutes, I get up and get her so I can get back to work (do it feeling).

As I drive to the train station, I realize what happens to me as I encounter a mess. AHA! This drama (feelings 1 and 2) plays itself out before I ‘do it’.

Now that I experience my feelings associated with a mess, my drama dissolves. Now when a mess happens, I just deal with it. No drama around it. Actually, as I write this, messy is not really a mess anymore, it is just another situation I deal with.

This new feeling after merging feelings has a cool outcome for me. The original feelings are still there, but they’re not the same. Maybe it’s because they’re dissolving. In any case, I see the process work for me, thank you.

Thank you for sharing your experience as this encourages others to engage the process.




Enjoying Messy

by Putting on Her Sundae Best


Freedom is another word for

liking your feelings.



Clip: http://www.btinternet.com/



Wed, 15 Sep 2004




Hi Ed,

Being childish sometimes, and receiving an AHA after, is myself sometimes.


Tue, 14 Sep 2004



Ed, do you and the trader you worked with intend to complete the "Exercise in System Development" that began earlier this year?

The exercise, like most everything on this site is a work in progress. 





is evidence of completion.


Clip: http://www.simons-rock.edu/


Tue, 14 Sep 2004


Decision & Choice

Dear Sir,

Can you please elaborate on what you have in the glossary about Decision - killing off alternatives until only one is left? So every decision is just the result of process of elimination?


How does it relate to TTP? Thanks.

Decide is from Latin dēcīdere, to cut off: dē-, + caedere, to cut. 


Choose is from Old High German kiosan to choose, from Latin gustare to taste.


Engaging TTP is more of a choice than a decision.  People typically develop a taste for it, rather than come to it as a last resort.






The Organ of Choice.


Clip: news.bbc.co.uk/.../ newsid_1646000/1646912.stm

Tue, 14 Sep 2004


It's Been a While

Hi Ed,

1.) In Jan of 1990 I was invited to attend a meeting in Marin County, Ca. You were the moderator and it involved focused breathing. The whole process we went through that day seems very similar to the Trading Tribe.


We came to the meeting with some feelings that bothered us, did the breathing exercise and then discussed our feelings with the group. It was an all day affair and each of us got to sit in the hot seat (although it wasn't called that at the time). I really enjoyed the process but never had any luck when attempting to repeat it by myself so it kind of faded into the background.

I have recently begun trading for myself and was delighted to come across your FAQ's and the Trading Tribe process. Kind of like finding an old friend (just in time I might add). Are today's TT meetings an evolution of that meeting 14 years ago? After going through about half of the FAQ's, I've not heard one mention of focused breathing, It seemed to be a large part of the process back then. Do you feel its no longer an integral part today?

2.) I recently took an intro course to VBA programming. I still have a long way to go in becoming adept at programming but I have yet to hear anyone use this particular programming language for developing trading systems and back testing. If this is my goal, is this a viable vehicle to accomplish it? I have read the FAQ rules and will not take your answer to #2 as a recommendation or endorsement for any particular commercial product. Just a bit of guidance.

Looking forward to further "Adventures of Self-Discovery"

Various forms of Breathwork and Meditation can help people get in touch with their feelings.


Once you get in touch with them, the trick is to experience them fully, and integrate them into your emotional control panel.  This seems to require effort and encouragement.


One of the essential functions of a Tribe is to give you encouragement and motivation to fully experience the feelings you have in K-nots.


Absent a tribe, you default to the DIM (Do It Myself) Process and  your own self-protective mechanisms may derail you.


You can use VBA, C, C++, Java, Perl, Cobol, Fortran, or even machine language - especially if you combine your coding with clear thinking.




A Clear Mind


has nothing in the way.



Clip: http://www.earlkemp.com/


Tue, 14 Sep 2004


True to Form

Chief Ed,

My current belief is that the propensity of TTP to become a passing worldwide-AHA is at least in part proportional to the worldwide accessibility of the TTP text.

Regarding key-concept posts: A few well-placed anchor tags attached to such
posts, comprising perhaps 5% of the total TTP text, can serve to bookmark the key detail of pivotal/foundational TTP concepts found in the overall FAQ content mix.

Such FAQ bookmarks can make overall TTP much more accessible. Efforts to create such bookmarks are therefore highly leveraged with respect to:

"Ed's ultimate intention for The Trading Tribe and for TTP is for people to experience it, and for it to disappear and become just another passing AHA."

I'm willing to assist in any project that increases the accessibility of TTP-defining FAQ-text along these lines.

Thank you for your suggestions and comments.  I feel they make the site much more effective. 


I welcome your continuing participation.

Tue, 14 Sep 2004


Changing Skins

No wonder most people do not want to go through change. It is simply hard and hardly simple to find out who you really are and notice the discrepancies between what you always thought of yourself and the truth.


I have to admit to so many things I do not like about myself. They are very often the negative characteristics in other peoples behavior I always dwelled upon. For
example, I get to know somebody and dislike the person for being disloyal or somebody who does not care for other people's feelings.


Sometimes the "me parts" where my fears of somebody doing something bad in the future. I think to myself "how can anyone be like that? This is evil". I walk through this as I let myself go in the everyday process. I notice those very feelings in me. This is me!


I never did stuff that brought me close to feeling them. Now I do some of them and I like them. I feel satisfaction for being real me and a bit of guilt also. I think I might be making enemies, I feel that my friends and loved ones are hurt by the things I do and say. I say: "I am sorry, really. But I am also not sorry at all. I have been living in my cocoon too long. I am not bad, I just want to be free and make progress. Do you understand?


I know I hurt, it's all pent up and releasing, please stay there with me!" This realization and change is not easy for anybody. The therapy I'm in keeps the little boy in me very alive. I now unconsciously do what I was always afraid of doing. This backfires sometimes as I see how irresponsible I can be. I keep taking risks without handling the consequences. I think "damn! I am not improving - I am only making things worse". But then I go out and explain myself as if I was Dad, who goes up to excuse his child. I do not punish him anymore, definitely not the way he was treated long ago. I embrace him, I say: "it's OK, just remember to think twice next time. I know you are strong and brave. You do not have to keep proving this to me".


I notice how I do things and the feelings pop up. I know why they are there. I never talked to myself like a good father talks to his son. I feels good because I feel a lot safer now. I feel forgiveness. It is now easier for me to ask for forgiveness. I also feel a little more accepted by me for just being me. I dream of making friends within myself and establishing a great team inside. I know I can because I have been there a few times before.

Take care

PS. I would really prefer my feelings brought up in a safer environment, right I do not have much of a choice.

In your Tribe, you might try independently experiencing your "child" form and then your "parent forms." 


Then you might try experiencing them simultaneously.  See Half-a-Yoga in the Glossary.




Skin Changes

when you touch it.


And you, too, may change,

automatically and effortlessly,

when skin touches you.


Clip: http://www.aquarelle.ca/



Tue, 14 Sep 2004


Tailoring My System

I bring up my general trading personality and start working on my real system, here it is:


contrarian - I feel a lot more confident when others hesitate

patient - able to wait months or even years for a move

trend-following - I like watching profits run and I like good losses too

imagination - I can picture any scenario when my mind is clear

believer - persistent in my long-term optimism, I always get up after a blow

focused - I know and feel my craft. I think I made 360 degrees.

strong will - this is new, but it is there. I am willing to change


very risk-seeking - my high: over 24% risk in a 1 ATR unit when very confident

irrational self-esteem - uncontrolled false believes of self, craving

procrastinating - fears regarding self-disciplined work

bad habits - ingrained self-destructing and losing patterns, mostly
clouded thinking

unruly - sometimes I just don't give a heck
addictive personality - hard to quit all this

I work on the bothering issues. I do not want to change them in a sense that they must disappear (although it would be nice if I stopped eating myself from the inside).

I would just like to know what I can make of them so that my system lives. Here are my guesses, now I see what finding positive intentions means:

very-risk seeking - this can lead to high gains. good. I make sure I survive along the way and can take the volatility ride.

irrational self-esteem - I find other things in life to make me feel good. There is more to life than trading. Maybe this will help me stick to the system. If  it does time will reward my trading self-esteem, bit by bit.

procrastinating - Now I realize that the main issues standing between me and my success is hard work and the feelings which prevent me from doing this work.

I also see that I always run away form work, unless I use it to escape other feelings. Funny that I must work hard to produce a relatively lazy system.

bad habits - I am proficient in losing, I even know I can lose by winning. I feel compassionate for other losers. My system will take this into consideration, I'll use good MM. It will soon be obvious that the losers are gone and my system is still alive. RIP guys, really sorry for you but I have to be responsible for my own trading.

unruly - how about just being successful, huh? People do not have to know what I'm doing. I have always got FAQ:)

addictive personality - I am already addicted to improving, this will create the system.

Self examination is subject to side-tracking by self-protection. 


See DIM (Do It Myself) process in the Glossary.


You might consider taking your investigations to your Tribe.




Tailors Rarely Tailor Themselves


at least while they are wearing

their clothes.


Clip: http://www.nwta.com/couriers/



Mon, 13 Sep 2004


First Time You've Heard This?


First off, I really enjoy your site, and I am learning every day how to be a better trend follower. Thanks for providing this service and forum.

I wanted to get your opinion on my experience as a trader, as I would be interested in your comments and perhaps some of your readers would benefit by reading this.

I have made two attempts during my life at becoming a full time trader. Both time I did this were after successful one year runs, where I wasn't crazy about my current job, and figured I was good enough to no longer need a job. Each lasted about 3 months, and each of these 3 month periods were my two most disastrous trading periods. Since the last 3 month period when I did this, I have started two other businesses and once again only devote an hour or two a week trading. Guess what? I am really doing well again.

I have come to realize that when I spend this extra amount of time on trading, I simply over trade and I get this overwhelming feeling of panic which I can't remember ever experiencing outside of these periods. When I am busy working on my other initiatives, I seem to filter out all the noise of daily market movements and am better able to see the trend.

Have you ever heard this from anyone before?

Yes, I know of a trader in Incline Village who does other things, like play the banjo and write an FAQ column.




Banjo Music


cures most anything


except, perhaps

the urge to play the banjo.


Clip: www.pamelasmusic.co.uk/ banjos.htm


Sun, 12 Sep 2004



Mr. E. Seykota

I am writing to you requesting some information about trading. I have been trading stocks off and on for several years. I have just finished reading a book that briefly talks about tend following, and I would like some more information about this type of trading.

1 - can trend following be applied to options or is it just for stocks, bonds and commodities trading.

2 - I have read about how traders get a buy or sell signal, were can I get more information about how to recognize set-up, buy and sell signals.

3 - can you please recommend some good books about the fundamentals of trend following in stocks, options and commodities for someone just starting in this type of trading.

- If you have any other tips and suggestions that you feel will be helpful.

Thank you for your time and help.

1 - Yes.

2 - Internet

3 - Check Resources/Books, above.


FAQ does not tell people what they should do.  See Ground Rules.




Part of the Story

is in the books.


The rest of the story

is in you.

Sun, 12 Sep 2004


Results and Intentions and SVO-p

Chief Ed,

I am implementing TTP communication techniques (such as direct and clearly articulated intentions in SVO-p format) to the best of my ability (as I understand the techniques) day-to-day. SVO-p is very [discontinuous / jagged / not smooth] to implement at first.

During one episode which concerns a kind of ambiguous, quasi-business proposal made to me recently by someone who observes one of my businesses, I experience instant results.

The result is that the person receives my intention-statement replies by email, and is no longer communicating. As in, no communication whatsoever.

Experiencing the personal hopeful feelings of maybe communicating further with this person is an interesting episode in itself as I come to understand some parts of what is actually happening.

SVO-p promotes clear communication and clear thinking.


If your correspondent finds SVO-p offensive, it may indicate he has something to hide from you.


Your overall performance might improve if you engage less, and more accurately.



Some Engagements


are illusory


Clip: http://www.lhup.edu/


Sun, 12 Sep 2004




What if you really don't have "drama" in your life ... no I'm not dead.

I own my own Coffee Roasting business which includes roasting coffee (warehouse) and retail stores.


After dealing with employees and all of their drama, customers and all of their drama - I realizing that you really can't do anything about "drama" but let it "play itself out."

I have found that reacting to "drama", or trying to play the "drama" out is a waste of time.


Fred already knows what is going to happen. All you can do is stay focused on the big picture and "keep on keeping on." We only get in trouble when we try to do it our way and Fred doesn't agree.

Having to deal with employee drama and with customer drama is your drama.


You might consider engaging TTP as a way to find out what Fred is trying to tell you.  Perhaps it has to do with your aversion to wasting time.


As you deal with your own issues you may find your employees and customers behaving much less dramatically.





A communal sport

in which you support

each others' roles.


Clip: http://www.isd362.k12.mn.us/



Sun, 12 Sep 2004


Hot Seat Experience

My continuing journey with TTP is accompanied with great increases in clarity, growth, and commitment. I am willing to experience life as it comes to me in this ever evolving moment of now. I no longer "look forward" to living my life in the future. I believe there is no destination, only the journey which is happening now. These shifts occur in my life as the major dramas dissolve.

One feeling that came to the surface recently played a role in my previous day-trading drama, yet I never seemed to experience in previous TTP sessions. It involved overtrading, losing my profits, and feeling guilt, shame, regret, etc. toward my family for making such a mess.


I would say to myself "I am so sorry for screwing up, you (my family) deserve better". As the trading drama dissolved, I found myself smoking cigarettes again after 20 years of off and on smoking. The smoking seemed to intensify. I would ask myself the why?


I would get this vision of me in a hospital with lung cancer, with my family around me in tears, and me feeling the ultimate in guilt, shame, and regret for bringing this on them. The feeling in the vision was so frightening to me, I knew I needed to experience it fully in the Tribe meeting. This is exactly what I did last week at the IVTT meeting.

September 2nd, 2004:

The feeling is intense and ready to come out. I am thankful I am on the hot seat as I do not want to leave this feeling un-experienced for another two weeks. I am ready. I tell the tribe a little background on the feeling and that is all it takes. I am experiencing the hospital image. I hold my son and feel the pain of the moment. I hold him even tighter, the emotions are intense, the guilt and pain are unbearable.


The floodgates open. The vision disappears. I am alone with the feeling now. I begin to cry. I cry uncontrollably. The fear and pain flow inside of me. I curl up in a ball on the couch in Ed's living room and cry even harder. As the crying subsides. Ed asks "are you willing to get into that feeling again". I hesitate, out of no where I shout "I don't want to F___ing do it!!" With that, I drop to the floor, I don't want do it again, I writhe in anger and resistance for a moment and then begin to cry once again with abandon. Not tears of sadness, I cry out of fear and pain. I am lost in the feeling, I cry so hard it is difficult to catch my breath. How long I cry, I do not know.

As the crying dissipates, Ed asks to me to locate and experience the partner feeling, the feeling which sets up the drama. It takes little time to locate the feeling. I know it well. It pulls me out of the present moment, and consumes my mind with thought and analyses about both the future and past. It makes me want a cigarette, or to overtrade, (or, I realize, anything that will take me to the guilt / shame / regret feeling complex). I have always enjoyed the feeling, but experiencing it in the tribe meeting was not pleasant. What felt energizing and exciting before now feels dull and lifeless, like a dead-end road. A dead-end road with an all too familiar ending. The feeling was heavy and my eyes felt out of focus.

I am now asked to combine the forms I have experienced. I let my body do what it needs to do. I am on the floor again. My body starts to move, contort, and search.
This process seems to have the effect of creating internal connections which release energy, energy that needs to flow through us and when we don't let it, it seems to work to our disadvantage.


It feels good. As I move through this process, I repeat one form where I am on my knees, laying face down on the floor with my arms spread out over my head, almost a stretching exercise. I find this form peaceful and insightful. Through this process my guilt / shame / regret is reframed as the most profound feeling of love for my family. A love which I am now willing and free to express and acknowledge. A love which doesn't have to be realized by acting out a drama.

Back with my family once again, I feel a sense of closeness, a bond, and a commitment to both send and receive all the love we share. The ones I love are so beautiful, their smiles bright, their hugs energizing, their innocence inspiring, their expressions meaningful. TTP has brought so much growth to my life and this is yet another example.

In the past week, I have yet to experience the dead-end feeling which takes me out of the present moment. I seems like it has wanted to come out, but finds no outlet and is reframed as renewed focus on the present moment. At times I find myself stretching my arms overhead, much like the form I experienced on the hot seat, it brings about warm feelings of joy and love.

I started practicing TTP thinking I would reach a destination where I would be a "new and improved me", I no longer think in those terms, I am simply on a path of which TTP plays a crucial role.

Thank you for sharing your experience with such depth and feeling.  Such reports motivate, encourage and inspire others to engage the process.


Sun, 12 Sep 2004



Dear TT,

I would like to attend to your workshop on 5, 6 and 7 November.


- Can I fax to you the "to register" paper, because I am living in Germany and to send my post it would take a week.

I need this week the confirmation if I can attend to the workshop, because I have to book a flight?

- Can I send the money by bank wire if not I have to ask my bank for a check which is acceptable in USA?

- I have to book in the hotel one day earlier, because I am coming from Germany, I have to made the reservation with the hotel, do you arrange some special rates for the workshop attendees?

Thank you for your help.

I am holding a place for you for two weeks, pending receipt of your application by mail. 


Payment is by check only.


The payment covers Workshop, plus room and board during the Workshop.


Extensions of hotel reservations are between you and the hotel.


See Workshop page, above, for complete instructions.

Sun, 12 Sep 2004


Flash of Lightning

Ed Says: "People who are Unwilling to create clear communication sometimes send
inaccurate messages to justify feeling indignant about the response."

As a non-native English speaker I try to do my best and yes unworthy treatment make me set things forth clearly and distinctly.

You might take my criticism, biting in tone, as an entry point into TTP.

The TTP method is to invite someone to take their feelings into the process - not to invite them to take your behavior into the process.




Biting For Fun and Profit


Model Heidi Klum imitates Mike Tyson's infamous biting of American heavyweight pugilist Evander Holyfield's ear as they pose in the 2000 sports Illustrated swim suit issue. — AP/PTI photo.


Clip: www.tribuneindia.com/ 2000/20000223/sports.htm

Sun, 12 Sep 2004


No More Trying


Great site!

I finally realize that I no longer need to try to become the trader I want to be. I do what the trader I want to be does.


In addition, I realize that I am the trader I want to be now. I always am the trader I am (want to be) and never the trader I am not (don't want to be) now.


Sat, 11 Sep 2004


Radio Interview

Hi Ed !

The radio host yesterday liked what I was saying about TTP so much that he bumped the next guest so I could continue with a longer interview.



The Sign for Radio


This man is signing so you can

hear by seeing

about a device that enables you to

see by hearing.



Clip: http://www.paajarvenky.fi/


Sat, 11 Sep 2004


PPR for Adults

I think that age tends to represent a measurement of time and, as such, is based on similar cognitive constructs. As far as I can see, neither age nor time seem to serve much of a purpose other than for convince sake – as a coordinator or place-holder.

I switch a couple words in your “PPR for Children,” and get (what I think) is a pretty cool PPR for adults.

Private Property Rules for Adults:

1. Stuff in and around the country has one and only one owner.

2. If you are the owner, you may do whatever you want with the stuff.

3. If you are not the owner, you may not touch the stuff without permission from the owner.

Implementation of PPR eliminates most of the conflicts between citizens.

Typical Violations of PPR:

1. The government gives some stuff to citizens and tells them to share it. Consequence: Since an adult cannot award a share of something he does not own, the adults first have to determine ownership. The default way to determine ownership is to fight.

2. The government scolds an adult for destroying some stuff, taking it apart, etc. Consequence: This sends an ambiguous message to the adult about who really owns it, about his ability to make decisions and about his own sovereignty.

3. The government disciplines (taxes) an adult by taking away some stuff. Consequence: This sends an ambiguous message to the adult about the sanctity of private property.

Your PPR (Private Property Rules) for adults contains ideas that may be difficult for adults to grasp.


Adults tend to hold beliefs about property, value, identity, etc. in deep k-nots.


Adults are largely immune to advice and opinions that threaten their beliefs in these areas.


One way to assist people to grasp new ideas is to receive their existing ideas, opinions and feelings, validate them and help them create a space in which to come to their own AHA's.  This is the essence of TTP.


Debating with someone rarely changes their attitude; debating is just drama in which two senders refuse to receive for each other.


During the political season, expect plenty of master-debater diatribe from politicians unwilling to try-a-tribe.


One good way to teach adults is to begin the process while they are still children.


Teach Your Children
by Crosby, Stills and Nash

You, who are on the road,
Must have a code

that you can live by.
And so, become yourself,
Because the past is just a good bye.

Teach your children well,
Their father's hell did slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they pick,

the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why,

if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh

and know they love you.

And you, of tender years,
Can't know the fears

that your elders grew by.
And so please help them with your youth,
They seek the truth before they can die.

Teach your parents well,
Their children's hell will slowly go by.
And feed them on your dreams,
The one they pick,

the one you'll know by.

Don't you ever ask them why,

if they told you, you will cry,
So just look at them and sigh

and know they love you.

Sat, 11 Sep 2004


PPR Rule Question

Hi Ed

How would the PPR rules work with unrelated playmates?

I was explaining the rules to my sister, who has boys age 2 1/2 and 10 months, and her first reaction was, "how do I implement the rules when the kids are not all my kids?"

If the kids are not your kids, simply refer to the PPR rule about not touching what is not yours.


To communicate PPR to children,  first implement it your own life.



The Sign for Mine


indicates the heart,


not the action of taking an object

that belongs to someone else.


Clip: www.simplifiedsigns.org/ M.htm

Sat, 11 Sep 2004


MSN Money Mentions Trading Tribe

Dear Ed,

MSN Money ... Friday 10th Sept 2004 ... mentions you and the trading tribe (first line of fine print section)



Fine Print - By Jon D. Markman

Ed Seykota, a trader who gained fame as one of the featured professionals in the Jack Schwager books Market Wizards,  has developed a concept of regional trader mutual-assistance cooperatives called Trading Tribes. Visit his Web site to learn more ... My own support group consists mainly of a small group of veteran traders and friends ... with whom I exchange instant messages all day ... I hadn't realized that these chats were a form of ongoing therapy, as well as opportunities to trade ideas.

TTP seems well on its way toward becoming a passing AHA.





typically give advice, cheer each other up and help protect each other from experiencing "bad" feelings.


Trading Tribes members assist each other to fully experience k-notty feelings and to find their positive intentions.


Clip: http://csehy.com/photos/friends.jpg