from Ed in Red)
Sun, 20 Jun 2004
Simple is Best
I have attached all the order files and brokerage statements for the past
week. The only discrepancies occurred with two trade execution issues. One
is a simple order entry error on my part, the other is an erroneous
triggering of a stop order by my broker. I remedied both errors at very
minimal expenditure of time, energy, and funds. All positions are consistent
with my trading system math.
System 3 is going very well. I am following my current system and continuing
research to improve the system. So far, all my testing points to a
simplification of the system rather than the addition of any rules.
This is consistent
with my experience as a profitable trader. I keep simplifying until I have
something that cannot be made simpler without sacrificing functionality. My
software provider is continuing to provide me with tools to test ever more
complex twists on my strategy, and I keep finding that nothing beats some of
the simpler ideas. I continue to test this week in an effort to uncover any
weaknesses my strategy has before implementing the simplified rule set.
Since some of the more complex (and less robust, by my definition) rules of
my system only take effect occasionally, this past week's trading is
consistent with both the old rules and the new rules. No trades were
signaled differently between the two. My aim is to have the "new
rules" fully tested and implemented quickly, before a situation arises
where trades that are not consistent with both systems are indicated.
Thank you for your continued support.
Fri, 18 Jun 2004
Minneapolis Tribe Update
We are pleased to report that the Minneapolis Trading Tribe now has 4
members committed to excellence and personal growth.
Thu, 17 Jun 2004
Today, I had a request from a fellow local TT member to support him. In the
process, I decided to reread your web paper on Trading Tribe Process.
Previously, I've read it several times. Surprise, again, I got something
wonderful new from it. Life is such a wonderful surprise/present. I shared
that experience with him also.
Last night at our regular local TT meeting, I and another member, both
independently took the opportunity to use Polarity process to experience
feelings we have been resisting, yet wanting to feel our whole lives. I love
how TTP works: I gain so much just receiving the other member when he did
his Polarity work, as I did doing my own, just different, yet supported my
own life wonderful journey.
Thank you so much for sharing the process at the May Workshop. Our local TT
leader, as always, expertly supported me in my Polarity work along with our
fellow tribe members supporting me too. I have been resisting feeling both
ends of this polarity issue my whole life wanting to feel them so much. After
experiencing both ends of my issue independently, then, he said now show us
how it would look if you were experiencing them both at same time. My
initial reaction was can't do it, it won't work, then I just told myself to
do it and did. Wow. We went through the process three times, it was
similar, yet different. I love how this work supports my wonderful trend of
ever more liberty in my life. It was great how our leader supported me
expanding my awareness. Along with that, my ever increasing awareness and
appreciation of what I life I am living now.
Thank you again for this gift that keeps giving to us and everyone we touch
in the world. As I said before, any other way I can help support you, just
are applying the Polarity Process to experiencing two complete forms
we fully experience the forms at the start and end of a major drama.
Then we proceed to experience them both in the now.
forms tend to synthesize into a new form and the original forms tend to
process tends to occasion substantial emotional resolution, deep AHA's and
Poles of a Magnet
to get together
they are separate
attract lots of drama.
you connect them
a keeper bar
no longer attract anything.
Thu, 17 Jun 2004
I didn't come from a financial background. I began to suspect that I was
able to develop a successful system because of that. My thinking is free and
clear from the complexities of economic theories, technical man-made
indicators and other things that I don't take into consideration when I
I graduated from [University] with Ph. D. in Psychology where I took strenuous
courses in advanced statistics. Odds and probabilities were always of
great interest to me as well as the philosophical meaning of all things in
In addition, I am always skeptical about traditional theories and teachings.
I always question any traditional way of doing things no matter what the
subject is. When I get interested in a subject, I always get to the bottom
of the matter, no matter how much time and effort it might take.
At one time in my life, I played the horse tracks professionally, North and
South. It required enormous concentration and hours and hours of study of
race track past performances. I also developed my own system on how to bet
football and basketball games during the season.
As I said, the financial world never was of much interest to me, but when I
was introduced by chance to electronic trading about four years ago, I
was hooked. I studied and traded a number of mechanical systems and
became convinced that no automatic system would hold for a long period of
I came to the conclusion that only a human mind can react successfully and
continuously to the changing patterns of stock market trading. The trader
has to possess specific psychological characteristics, such as quick
judgment, ability to make detached, non-emotional decisions and have the
endurance of waiting for hours and hours for the right situation without
getting bored ... able to sit for hours and hours in hiding,
waiting for that right moment to jump out and strike ...
My psychology background also allowed me to watch for human mass
psychological motivation that often governs intraday trading. I also
use advanced psychological concentration techniques that help me to
stay focused for long periods of time.
As for indicators, I use odds, probabilities, trace speed, volume and chart
patterns, but not the ones that are in all the text books, but my own
pattern recognition, that I don't bother to define since they are
rather complex and I am not in the teaching business.
couple trips to the hot seat usually cures traders of the urge to day -
trade, to trade on non-definite indicators and to use the markets to work
Thu, 17 Jun 2004
TTP Youth Report
Yesterday [my son] and I are driving home after a rousing racquetball match.
He asks if we can go [a] movie. I say "I'll think about it."
After a few moments, he says "Dad, what's standing between you and
taking me to the movies tonight?"
"Well, I'm thinking about what others in the family might have planned,
that I'd like to studying programming tonight, stuff like that."
He says, "So how does that make you feel?" I go from thinking to
feeling. I answer.
"Good. Just totally experience that. What color is that feeling?"
The indecisive feelings pass. I know he's got me.
After a few minutes, "So Dad, what's standing between you and taking me
to the movies tonight?"
"Nothing." Later that evening we both enjoy the movie .....
No arguments. No whining. No retreat into sullen teen moodiness. He's good
teach TTP by example. Good job, Dad.
we Teach the Most
by being there.
Date: Thu, 17 Jun
20 Hot Seat
and Lives to
Tell About It.
Having resolved nearly all of my trading related issues and with the model
account up close to 40%, I have decided to take a sabbatical from TTP and
move on to other things.
TTP and the tribe has been a great journey and a life changing event. I
started participating in TTP in May-03, with close to 50 meetings, 2 all day
workshops and at least 20 hot seat sessions made all the difference.
A testimonial TTP does work, just stick with it. I mean I traded for 18
years, no kidding 18 long years, before I finally turned consistently
profitable in November of 2003. I think if I can do it, anyone can.
Having shared so much, at such deep personal level, I consider each one of
you to be a life long friend, I could not have done it without all of your
support and generous time. I hope in turn I made a small contribution.
that you can stick with losing for 18 years and then quit after winning for
about one year.
you stick with TTP
complete 50 hot seats
your own personal
Mon, 14 Jun 2004
I would like to share with you my first Hot Seat experience at the last
Tribe meeting last Monday. I realized that I was unwilling to feel a lot of
my feelings. I hope that I'll be able to work through these feelings with
the Tribe so that it will not affect my trading. One of my unresolved
feelings was feeling guilty over losing ... money.
The Tribe helped
me to accept guilt as an ally. I think the positive intention of guilt is to
motivate me to trade better and to make money. Before the Hot Seat, I
thought guilt was a "bad" feeling, something to be ignored and
forgotten. It turns out that I could not ignore or forget the feeling
because Fred kept creating drama to remind me.
I see now that if
I can improve my ability to feel my feelings I can be become a better
trader. Another unresolved feeling that I had was feeling lonely ...
However, I cannot see what the positive intention of feeling lonely is. I
would love to hear any thoughts you may have on my recent Hot Seat
rarely arises from losing - since the possibility of loss is generally part
of the trading agreement.
your guilt has more to do with not keeping other parts of your trading
positive intention of guilt
to support integrity.
people are chronically unwilling
feel guilt, or to exhibit remorse.
Mon, 14 Jun 2004
I learn a very important lesson, and that's commitment. It is one of the
rules in my System 3, and it is an area I've been focusing on as we've been
discussing. When I hear your voice mail, it really strikes me. A lot of
emotions and feelings come up. I mean, here it is, arguably the greatest
trader ever lived, honoring his commitment to a seemingly unimportant person
on a seemingly unimportant issue. It may not be significant to you, but it
is very much to me!!
So I just want to say thank you! Even though I didn't get to talk to you on
Saturday, I still learn an extremely valuable lesson. Honoring all my
commitments, not matter how small they may seem. I don't make them lightly,
and I treat every one of them seriously if I do make them.
This last weekend
it keeps swirling in my head commitment, commitment, commitment, and
I am very ready to
be committed. And I start to be a committed person - NOW. I am proud to say
that I keep my commitment to take my feelings to the hot seat last week (as
I sent you an email about it), and I have kept my commitments today (as in
my System 3), and I am very determined to keep them until June 30th. You
have shown me a great example, and I know what it takes now. THANKS!!!!!!
Mon, 14 Jun 2004
I have read about you in numerous places and I know that you have been a
great mentor to many young traders. I am under the impression that you don't
manage money anymore, but can you suggest anyone who might make a good
mentor for a young, ambitious guy with an extreme passion for the
I have been
inspired by trading since I was in middle school and I have worked at a
few places throughout college and landed at [Trading Firm] on an equity
trading desk. I think that I have a good feel for the markets and I also am
sure that I have what it takes to succeed. Please let me know if you have
any suggestions. Thanks for your consideration and time.
does not endorse people or commercial products. See Ground Rules.
the student is really ready, the teacher appears.
suggest you rewrite your,
"I have been
inspired by trading,"
into. + spīrāre, to breathe.
Mon, 14 Jun 2004
I read an interesting news account of people nearing death having
extra-personal (out of body) experiences. I think these accounts are similar
to those outlined in Stanislav Grof's books and in my personal experiences
during Breathwork sessions - and especially the accounts of others.
near death experiences, as well as extreme emergency, hyper - ventilation,
hypo - ventilation, focused breathing, spinning-induced dizziness,
hallucinogens, spontaneous enlightenment and mystic practices - all
seem to deliver people to states similar to those we regularly obtain with
seems compatible with other practices. Furthermore, it's legal, free,
non-addictive, non-fattening and fun.
In his book Life
After Life, Dr. Moody describes accounts of people who have
near-death experiences. These accounts range from relatively brief events,
where a person may see the bright light for only a few moments, to where
people report communicating with a presence on the other side.
Sun, 13 Jun 2004
My Trading and
I am running a preschool in a small town of
India. Perhaps because I spend so much time with two, three, four year olds
that I feel very much in touch with my feelings and my instincts.
I read your
comment about schools not allowing emotional intelligence to develop and
would like to tell you that my school is so different. My teachers are
trained never ever to look down on children. We like to express our feelings
with them and encourage them to do so. We do have a good curriculum and my
results are fantastic. Almost 90% of my school children are able to read
before they are six years old.
Their math skills
are exceptional. There is no scaring and putting children down in the
school. They have full freedom to express their views on anything, from
their teachers attitude, to the playground equipment in the garden. Their
views are then discussed and taken very seriously.
The new teachers
find all this very odd but then find the atmosphere therapeutic. I want to
tell you about my trading now. I have been in this business for a few years
but saw trading success only two years back. My broker was very supportive
and encouraging and that really helped me to do well.
As is usual when
one is really committed then things automatically start going right. But
then my broker and his wife had a car accident and died on the spot. I saw
this as a signal that I should not trade and have not done so for the last
18 months. I miss it so much. I really need to talk to someone who loves the
market as my broker did and I do. I needed to tell you this because I am not
yet healed. Thank You for reading this.
standard approach, throwing more and more money at broken educational
structures - is no substitute for the hands-on dedication to inspiring
students that you describe.
job! Thank you for daring to walk the path of the true teacher - in
spite of institutional impediments to doing so.
students are lucky to have you at the helm.
might consider assembling a tribe of teachers and money managers.
schools today, little is safe from commercialization and
privatization. A wide variety of companies and corporations are
attempting to take over virtually all of the work traditionally
performed by school district employees, from teaching to providing
student transportation to cooking meals to cleaning and maintaining
school buildings and grounds, and more.
Public Sector Unions
concern about their own jobs.
Fri, 11 Jun 2004
contemplating your statement:]
Ed Says: "Your real trading system is the set of
feelings you are unwilling to experience."
Fri, 11 Jun 2004
Dear Dr. Seykota,
After coming across your name in Market Wizards and becoming fascinated and
rather struck by your words I started to track down more information and
came across this link. It doesn't seem like your style so I concluded it was
a bogus site and thought I'd forward it to you.
I did find your
trading tribe site in that search and I am reading through the past posting
before I ask questions that may already have been answered. Redundancy is
wonderful and necessary for Aircraft and weapon systems, but your time is
too valuable to be answering something already asked.
I'm looking forward to participation.
Thank you for this site.
someone claims someone else's Money Management System, you might ask them
how their Integrity Management System works.
to Tell if They are Lying
if their lips are moving
Thu, 10 Jun 2004
Feel my feelings
Thanks for your suggestion of taking my feelings into TTP last night. I did
just that and it is some amazing experience. I write it down here so that I
don't miss any details. I look forward to hearing your insights. Thanks!
I have been working on the issue of commitment (System 3 Rule #1).
I know what's
important to me in the pursuit of my goal in managing risk (System 3 Rule
#2). I need a risk management plan, and I am approaching it by creating my
own framework to run large scale back tests, and check the P&L curves
with my feelings (System 3 Rule #3) to see if I can handle the drawdowns.
What's between me and risk management is having this framework
What's between me and having this framework built then? It is my putting off
working on it. I know it is important to me, and yet I usually leave it as
the last job to do on my daily "Must-do" list, and in certain
cases almost missing it.
So I take it into TTP, and the feeling is pushing it away and ignoring
it. Then I feel bad for ignoring it.
I don't feel like hearing the cheering from the receivers, and so I block my
ears. And then somehow I don't know how it starts but I block my breathing.
I am holding my breath. And then somehow I find myself sucking any remaining
air inside, and thus feeling a lot of pressure and even dizziness. I keep
holding my breath until to a point where I cannot stand it any more, and I
cough up and grasp for breath. I am torturing myself here. But somehow I get
right back to it and increase the intensity. I go deeper and hold my breath
I don't like this feeling but I get back to it anyway. Whatever I am doing
is the right thing. So despite the suffering I get back to this holding
breath until I choke. As the pain increases it helps with the receivers'
encouragements. I feel like I am being tortured by some authority (like
prisoners of war being questioned), and I am suffocated almost to death (yet
unaware at the time it is me who is suffocating myself).
I get back over and over, and the reaction is more violent, catching my
breath even harder, cry out ever louder. Tears of pain keep rolling.
Mucus build up to the point where I can't breath through my nose even if I
want to. I just need to close my mouth, suck the air out until it feels like
a vacuum inside and at that point I'll choke really hard. With the
encouragement of the receivers I get it going, as if I am in a race running
and they are cheering me up to hang on. One more step. One more step. One
When the receiver asks what stands between me and my goal, I feel like
what's blocking is this feeling. If I can hold my breath long enough, then I
can just let it explode and "cleanse" me. So I need to get back to
The suffocating pain intensifies, and more and more I don't feel like
getting back to this feeling. The receivers keep encouraging me, so I get
even deeper. It gets so painful to a point that I actually jump off the hot
seat as it explodes. I get back slowly, and I hit the ground again. With my
hands on the ground I am trying to regain some strength. I feel exhausted.
But deep inside I feel very good. I feel like a warrior. I feel like a
football running back who refuses to go down, and is ready to get back up
every time he gets down, and ready to face running into a wall of tackles
again. I really feel good about that.
As I get back to the hot seat the pain lessens a bit. More and more I see
how pointless it is for me to be doing this. I have proved that I have a
commitment. That's what I am craving for, the commitment like a running back
getting back up every time he falls. I am punishing myself. I can actually
breathe as long as I choose to. I can choose to breathe.
So that's what I do. As I retest that feeling of holding my breath and my
receiver telling me "Do it the way I like it," I just let go and
actually breathe. I can breathe. I blow my nose, all clear, and I breathe
with ease. Breathing very well, comfortably and peacefully. I think I can
stop self-sabotaging or self-punishing.
It is a very intensified session and the receivers were in awe. I thank them
for their continuous support and cheering. Looking back I cannot believe the
pain I've gone through, and the torturing path that I have
chosen to take.
work - you sound as if you are moving toward freedom.
might check with your family about your own childbirth.
can assume the form of oppressive restraint, even drowning.
leave a complex of feelings
11 Jun 2004
Thank you for your prompt response. In few words and one pics I learn more
about myself then in few years trading.
Can you develop a little bit fractals in data please ?
Do you mean (when you speak about fractals) that its possible to take
advantage (developing good trend following systems ) on smaller time (5
minutes) frame as well as on larger time frame (weekly) or were you just
pointing out the behavior of price ?
Please can you develop fractals in relation to risk management? risk reward
ratio on smaller time frame (ex:15 minutes) compare to risk reward ratio on
larger time frame (ex:weekly bar)?
Please can you give us your opinion about developing trend following
system based on smaller time frame compare to larger time frame?
I find this an important question for smaller equity speculator in their
Thank you again for the faq (big mine of knowledge and wisdom)
Thank you for sharing that with us.
I have 16000 of flying hours , I like the research and development you make
on the mechanic of fluid with the radial momentum approach. This is
really a revolutionary approach and you will probably need a lot of courage
facing the old theoretical community ;<).
Big fundamental problem !.
PS: Sorry about clarity my home language is French.
frequency trading is about as efficient as high frequency flying (going
cross country by taking airplane trips of about 10 minutes at a time).
Yes, you can do it, and yes, the "frequent flyer" costs are high.
problem with devoting your life to confronting the "theocritical"
community - is that eventually you develop a following and become a
flights every hour.
11 Jun 2004
Just want to say to everyone in the IV-Tribe that you are all Winners and I
am thankful to you for your contribution to my evolution. Thank you Ed for
Love, Peace and Happiness to you and yours
PS. see you at "the breathing experience"
I am planning a weekend of TTP and Focused Breathwork, for members of the
Incline Village Tribe and graduates of either the May or November TTP
must also demonstrate conceptual mastery of the material at: http://primal-page.com/sgrof.htm
invisible hot seat optional.
11 Jun 2004
always though that trading was a way of being more then a way of
traders are notoriously self-reliant and fiercely independent. I realized
after few years of trading that the interplay of the ego and the
subconscious, is, essentially
impossible on my own, but rather natural in a group or tribe.
understand that Fred Controls
our Actions, Instinctively.
enters the mind through the senses and flows to Fred. Fred is the part of
the mind some call the subconscious.
Conscious Mind gets information from Fred and applies logic and judgment and
figures things out.
is the Result of Fred and CM
and CM naturally and continually carry on these cooperative dialogues.
a healthy individual, Fred sends protective warnings (PW's) and CM responds
in the Flow of Experience ceates repeating
society teaches us to suppress our All this suppression interrupts the vital
link through which Fred communicates Experience to CM.
this interruption of the transfer of experience occurs, Fred continues to
replay the experience, at higher and higher levels, to try to inform CM.
always has a positive intention, and everyone always gets what they want
(reminds me of Ed Seykota interview with Jack Swagger), or at least what
Fred wants. Protestations and denials from CM only confirm the syndrome.
intentionally leaves out a lot of the methods that people normally try to
implement, like providing information, promoting action, offering guidance
and enrolling in drama.
understand the importance of attending meetings because:
meetings are often as much an exercise in not doing things as in learning
new methods. The primary tools of the Trading Tribe are sharing feelings,
mirroring, pacing and encouraging each other to be exactly the way we are.
goes with the flow, validating feelings at every step, encouraging people to
act and feel exactly as they do.
is converting someone to your faith or doctrine. Proselytizing is a
form of telling people what they "should" believe. TTP is
not a belief system; it is a process to assist people to develop their own
beliefs. To the extent TTP, itself, becomes a belief system, and people try
to convert people to it, it is no longer TTP.
spreads by receiving others, supporting them to be themselves, as they see
apologize for my little knowledge of psychology and hope you will accept me
as a member.